Thoughts on Ayn Rand?

Yesterday, we got an email to table@waitbutwhy-2024-production.mystagingwebsite.com from a man named Andrew F. of Toronto. It said:

“Ayn Rand.”

That was his Dinner Table topic suggestion. I get it.

Ayn Rand is mentioned in this week’s post as part of a list of people who carved new pathways by being unique, independent thinkers—and already, before the post has even been sent to email subscribers, a bunch of commenters are pissed off. Let’s discuss why this woman is so polarizing. So many people love her and so many despise her. Thoughts?

Tim’s Answer: I’ve personally only read The Fountainhead, so I have limited knowledge. But I absolutely loved the book. Sure, the characters are extreme and one-dimensional—but to me, that was the point. To use extreme characters to represent different qualities within all of us. My interpretation was that there’s a Roark and Keating in all of us and that the goal should be to have Roark be the one in control. Roark was a weirdo and not a very likable character, but again, I wasn’t seeing him as a human at all—just an element of human nature. To me, The Fountainhead was a fictional way to talk about cooks and chefs and why it’s so important to let your own software guide you in life.

I’ve heard that Atlas Shrugged is significantly more of a “dogma being shoved down your throat” book (my dad physically threw the book in the trash two-thirds of the way through), so maybe that’s why I’m missing what’s so offensive about Rand. But again, even in that case, I’ve heard people from a range of political leanings say Atlas Shrugged is their favorite book.

So why do people who love her love her and why are the people who hate her so worked up?

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15 comments

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  1. boszg Avatar
    boszg
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    I read Rand when I was a young and impressionable 15 year old and I was struck by the sense that, for the very first time in my life, I was reading something with which I was wholeheartedly in agreement. I’ve since moved beyond libertarianism but I believe Rand manages to capture something essential about people – and the people that hate her work hate it because they see themselves in the whiners, grifters, and parasites against she so vehemently rails.

  2. Aloysius Fekete Avatar

    I don’t hate Ayn Rand. In fact I was a massive massive acolyte as a teenager. I read all her novels several times over including We The Living which in retrospect is the most beautiful. I read every non-fiction book she wrote that I could get my hands. I was so inspired I went on to study architecture at the Frank Lloyd Wright School of Architecture in Taliesin West.

    But, I gained my own real-world experience over time I grew increasingly disillusioned by her example. My criticism is that her conception of the world is at best incomplete and at worst distorted. It seeks to judge rather than understand, to exclude rather than to include and to divide rather than unite. It divides the world between those with laser-eyes and everyone else – the “second-handers”. So, while I continue to aspire to some of the ideals/values she was a proponent of on balance I feel her movement is not a positive force in society.

  3. Rob W Avatar
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    Ayn Rand’s books are much like Karl Marx in that it all sounds good in theory but are just navel gazing rubbish.

    She never worked in government but rails against government waste and inefficiency.
    She never ran a business but sees unfettered capitalism as a utopia.
    She despised socialism but died receiving sickness benefits from the government.

    There were some good ideas in both Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead but for me it was a case of taking a concept that should be part of a mix and ratcheting it up to 11 and the pure concept is the only way forward.
    Yes, too much charity can be damaging. Socialism can be taken too far. It is good for some individuals to uncompromisingly follow their dream at the expense of short term convenience.
    This doesn’t mean all charity is evil, social Darwinism should rule at the expense of societal compassion, or that that anyone who holds down a lifelong career job is an unimaginative dolt. There is a spectrum in all things.

    And really! Atlas Shrugged is about a society that unexplainably keeps electing a continuously incompetent and corrupt government to its own obvious detriment. This results in all the business entrepreneurs taking off to set up a colony hidden by a reality perception shield, built with magic steel, powered by a perpetual motion machine and it was all set up by a pirate. Seriously. And this is supposed to demonstrate how things would be in reality if we all just adopted a more self centred outlook on the world and let the weak and less fortunate just die on the vine. Grow up.

    To give her a bit of a break. I understand her outlook was formed by being a refugee from the Bolsheviks after the Russian revolution. Maybe her ideas would apply to that era, but they certainly have no place in the modern political spectrum and particularly when used to criticise Scandinavian style socialism.

    1. Joel freeman Avatar
      Joel freeman
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      Great comment, and you didn’t even talk about her personal love life which is rife with examples of where theory runs into the brick wall of reality.

      1. Rob W Avatar
        Rob W
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        Thanks for your kind words.
        I can’t believe I critiqued Atlas Shrugged and forgot to mention Objectivism which is kind of the point of the whole book. Doh!
        For what its worth I am on board with objective truths vs the irritatingly modern “Its true for me”crap.
        I thought I’d leave her love life out of it as it seem a non relevant, judgemental cheap shot.
        Though I will say the sex scenes in her books were a bit rapey. All women just need a bit of dominatin’ I guess. /s ????

    2. Prasanth Avatar
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      It’s an insult to call the system of government in Scandinavian countries as ‘socialism’! They sure do have government providing services- but that isn’t what socialism is. It is basically Government having great deal of control over the Markets- not a free market system like the Nordic countries.

      1. Rob W Avatar
        Rob W
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        That’s why I called it Scandinavian style socialism & wrote that there is a spectrum in all things.
        Either way, Scandinavian socialism (or not) was not the point of the post.

  4. Franco Barbeite Avatar
    Franco Barbeite
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    I read The Fountainhead in college.

    The problem I perceived with the work was the same issue Tim admires: one dimensional characters.

    For a philosophy to be useful, it has to work in the real world.

    Ironically, given her disdain for socialism, Rand’s philosophy suffers from the same flaw.
    It sounds good in theory, but doesn’t work in practice.

    Her ideas are worse however, because at least socialist propaganda sounds convincing. Rand’s characters are one dimensional caricatures. The more one learns about how hard, complex things get done in the real world, the more one’s worldview diverges from Rand’s.

    …Except for a particular type of reader, which I’ll touch on later.

    First let’s talk about Roark. One core flaw is his pathological overconfidence in absence of any reasonable feedback. He wants to “Make Art” using other people’s resources, without any input as to how those resources are used. According to Rand, that’s OK, because he’s better at it than they are. Why? Because Rand, and other ‘characters of superior taste’ say so.

    Real innovators from Einstein to Jackson Pollock to Thomas Edison, to the army of behind the scenes designers and engineers at Apple… worked through countless iterations to achieve what they did. Through trial & error, feedback and collaboration, they eventually landed on ideas that worked. Einstein’s seminal papers, for example, were co-authored by his wife!

    Roark on the other hand, blew up a building because it “corrupted his vision.” Like the homeless families it would have sheltered really care about that.

    In the real world, we build intuition about what matters by listening to others. We expand our understanding of nature through continuous scientific experimentation. Rarely is what we learn intuitive. Often, it’s humbling. Given the complexity of the world, it’s almost impossible to innovate alone.

    Ayn Rand paints complex realities with an over-simplistic brush. And like socialism, when put in practice, her philosophy tends toward authoritarianism.

    Which brings me back to the kind of people that find her inspiring. I suspect Rand tends to sway gifted teen-agers, the wealthy, and the children of the wealthy among others.

    These people tend to be more ambitious than average. Reality tends to reinforce their belief that they, or their ideas, are better than those of others.

    Rarely have they had the humbling experience of finding themselves in a population of people as gifted or privileged as they are.

    To them, Rand’s philosophy reinforces their intuition that they are somehow inherently special. Crucially, their survivorship bias tend to under-weigh how much dumb luck has contributed to their situation.

    To be clear, self confidence, assertiveness, grit, and the ability to learn and adapt in the pursuit of one’s goals are admirable qualities. More so for those who can do it while preserving their core values. But Rand isn’t necessary for that.

    The world is full of imperfect role models full of human foibles and flaws who fit that bill. People like Thomas Edison, Steve Jobs, Satya Nardella, Sergei Brin, Elon Musk, Grace Hopper, and countless others. People whose names we may not know, but who all had, in addition to talent and hard work, numerous collaborators working tirelessly behind the scenes to help bring their innovations to life.

    Heck, even Jackson Pollock had Clem Greenberg and Peggy Guggenheim hyping him up. Unusual talent definitely exists, but Ayn Rand’s great man myth is just that: a myth.

  5. Random  Avatar
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    I desperately, passionately love The Fountainhead. I found it when I was 15 and it’s been my favourite book ever since. For me, it’s a very powerful message about what it means to live authentically and create true value in the world, and the Roark/Keating dichotomy it describes is one I’ve seen play out among real people around me repeatedly. I don’t think I’ll ever forget what it said about ‘second-handers’ and I honestly think there’s no worse fate in the world than to be a Keating, with no self-identity except the empty reflections of other people’s opinions.

    I have slightly more mixed feelings about Atlas Shrugged. It’s a powerful and inspiring story, but it has a sort of element of rigidity or insanity to it: the heroes are unbelievably perfect, the villains are utterly contemptible, and literally everything is a value judgement: it’s often hard to tell if Rand is just describing a character or taking a moral stand on whatever the character is doing, even something seemingly innocuous like wearing a yellow dress.

    From what I’ve read about Rand, she was an undeniable visionary who became increasingly rigid and closed-minded in her later years. Her friends describe her as being a person who sometimes judged people’s moral worth based on if they reacted to a given piece of music the same way as her, which fits with what I said above. But all that said, I greatly admire her as a person and I do my best to live by the philosophy in The Fountainhead.

    1. Random Avatar
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      Edit: after reading some of the comments, I feel like I should say something about the way Ayn Rand uses the terms ‘selfish’ and ‘selfishness’. In Rand’s writing, ‘selfishness’ refers to perfection of the self: integrity, creative self-expression, and being true to your own values. She did _not_ use it to mean petty self-interest or putting your own physical welfare above that of others: that would be degrading and detrimental to the moral self, and therefore ‘unselfish’ by her definition. Why she chose to use the word this way is a bit mystifying, and I feel like a lot of the misunderstanding around her work centres around this point. My best guess is too many years of living in horrible Soviet Russia and hearing selflessness equated with every kind of atrocity committed for the ‘greater good’ made her want to reclaim the concepts of ego and self-interest to mean something sacred.

  6. P. Stein Avatar
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    I don’t particularly hate her as much as I have a slight dislike of her because the people around me dislike her.

    It’s not a good reply from a scientific point of view, but it’s very accurate and I would dare say, representative of a part of the global population of people who know who she is.

    1. Zack Glickert Avatar
      Zack Glickert
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      What a horrible reason to dislike someone

  7. Albert Avatar
    Albert
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    Admittedly, I only read Anthem, but I was so disgusted by it I’m scared to pick up any of her books. The main character runs off and discovers science text books and forgotten technology, wants to bring it to his dystopian society, and they refuse him, so he runs off with the woman that he loves, finds an abandoned house, and celebrates how much of a self made man he is and how he’ll defend this land he earned for himself. First off, he’s only doing well off the past success of others. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it seems to really contradict his quest for individualism, doesn’t it? Where would he be if he hadn’t discovered the science text books or the already built house? He learned so much from libraries but is now going to deny those libraries to others? This is the exact behaviour that lets children of business moguls deny their privilege and see themselves as a bootstrap story. Also, the main character seems to assume that everyone around him is stupid. This is probably my biggest issue with Ayn Rand. The prevailing interpretation that I’ve seen is that society doesn’t let the gifted people be special enough, so let the stupid people be stupid and give me free reign to live out whatever really smart fantasy I have. It’s the exact “normy” culture that I think denies certain people humanity and understanding. Lastly, I don’t really see Anthem’s point. Who’s advocating for a system where we shun science, give people no choice in their lives, and only advocate conformity. I’m not a Bolshevik sympathizer, but this seems to be echoed more directly in our American school systems where parent’s have their kids live’s planned out for them and evolution is something parents can opt their children out of, than in science endorsing Russia. Rand paints this unrealistic society no one would ever advocate for as a straw man for her argument that selfishness is beautiful. I could go on for days but I don’t think I really have to.

  8. Kelly Granite Life Coaching &  Avatar
    Kelly Granite Life Coaching &
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    Rand’s working title to her book ‘The Fountainhead’ was “Second-hand Lives”. She was creating a story to show two different types of people, the ones who live to rule, or be ruled to gain public approval and those who live to create, “Roark”. I loved ‘The Fountainhead’ it helped define me. I recently purchased a photo of Rand to hang over my writing desk. 🙂

  9. mango spinach Avatar
    mango spinach
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    I am a big fan of Rand’s philosophy, and I am very curious to learn what the counter-arguments may possibly be. I searched for articles that criticize her theories, and found this: https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Virtue-of-Stupidity-A-Critique-of-Ayn-Rand-and-Objectivism I love how every single one of the author’s attempts at an argument is utterly destroyed in the comments section there!

    The only semi-convincing criticism I’ve come across so far is the issue with the entitled rich kids who never had to work for their money, and how in many cases their selfishness could be destructive to the society. Rand addresses this in “Atlas Shrugged” as well though, saying that the rich who haven’t earned their money and have no skills to do so will lose it quickly (which would actually help support the economy). I would say that if the world were able to gradually adjust to Rand’s way of thinking, mainly in regards to holding competence and ability to create value as the highest moral achievements, then this issue would gradually disappear as well: no decent parents (i.e. those who understand the value of money, personal growth, and achievement) would simply hand over their earnings to their kids w/o making sure they’ve been properly educated and found a good path for themselves (as in no allowance till you hit 30 or something like that), and no decent person would use their wealth to hurt others (again, given that the society gradually conditions people to become decent). Obviously this would take time, since in today’s world people’s values are pretty screwed up.

    Thoughts?