Why is There Something Instead of Nothing?

No, but seriously. Why is there something instead of nothing?

Last night, as I was creeping around the internet at 2:43am while the adults of the world slept, my eyes glanced by the headline, “Why is there something instead of nothing?” on the sidebar of a site I was on. I didn’t click the article.

I finally went to bed, planning to sleep eight hours, when at 7am I decide that actually, it was a better plan to wake up and stare at the ceiling for three hours thinking about why there was something. Instead of nothing.

I had heard the question before. It’s an old one that lots of people have pondered. But until 7am today, it hadn’t fully hit me how unbelievably boggling a question it was. It’s not a question—it’s the question—and the more you think about it, the less sense it makes.

First, my mind goes to “Wait—why is there anything at all?” Why is there space and time and matter and energy at all?

Then, I think about the alternative. What if there were just…nothing…at all…ever…anywhere? What if nothing ever was in the first place? But what? No. That can’t—there has to be something.

Nothing is truly a crazy concept. I’d keep thinking about a false nothing—like a vast empty vacuum (which is something) or nothing here, but other universes elsewhere in other dimensions (which is something), or nothing now, but at some point, way before or after now, there being something (which is something). Even in my question in the paragraph above, I refer to “ever” and “anywhere”—two words that themselves only exist in the world of something, because time and space are something.

Trying to wrap my head around true, utter nothing, is what kept my eyes extra wide as I stared at the ceiling between 7am and 10am this morning.

But the fact is, there isn’t nothing—there’s something. We’re something. The Earth is something. Space is something. Time is something. The observable universe and its 100 billion galaxies are something.

Which then leads me to, Why? Why does all this something exist? And where the hell are we? If this universe is the only thing there is, that’s kind of weird and illogical—why would this big space just exist by itself in an otherwise nothing situation? More logical, to me, is the bubbling, frothing multiverse situation—but okay, we still then have the same problem. Why is this bubbling thing happening? Where is it happening? In what context is it happening?

That’s our main issue—we have no context. It’s like being zoomed in on a single letter and not knowing anything else—is the letter part of a book? In a library somewhere? Is it part of a word that exists by itself? Is it a single letter all alone? Is it part of some code we don’t understand? We have no fucking idea, because all we can see is this one letter. We have no idea about the context.

Religious people have a quick answer to “Why is there something instead of nothing?” I’m not religious, but when I’ve thought hard enough about it, I’ve realized that it’s as plausible as anything else that life on Earth was created by some other intelligent life, or that we’re part of a simulation, or a bunch of other possibilities that would all entail us having a creator. But in each possible case, the existence of the creator still needs an explanation—why was there an original creator instead of nothing—and to me, any religious explanation inevitably hits the same wall.

I did a little reading this morning to see how people who had thought about this a lot more than I had felt about the question. Not surprisingly, no one has a clue.

Certain scientists believe that quantum mechanics suggests that nothing is inherently “unstable,” that it’s possible for little bubbles of space-time (something) to form spontaneously (out of nothing), and that if a thing is not forbidden by the laws of quantum physics, it is guaranteed to happen.http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141106-why-does-anything-exist-at-all Therefore, say quantum physicists, the arising of “something” was inevitable. I’ll file this whole paragraph in the Whatever the Fuck That Means cabinet.

Others, like Joel Achenbach, believe that there’s no such thing as nothing in the first place. He explains:

Seems to me that “nothing,” for all its simplicity and symmetry and lack of arbitrariness, is nonetheless an entirely imaginary state, or condition, and we can say with confidence that it has never existed. “Nothing” is dreamed up in the world of something, in the brains of philosophers etc. on a little blue planet orbiting an ordinary yellow star in a certain spiral galaxy.

I don’t quite get Achenbach’s logic. Why does there have to be a physical world at all? Why is a physical world an automatic thing? But then…if there weren’t a physical world—ever—then what, there’s just fucking nothing at all?

This is ruining me.

Someone help.

___________

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  1. Marc Avatar
    Marc
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    I’ve been trying to understand my “religious” beliefs more and more tonight because of a small lump in my neck that’s probably nothing. Anyways I’ve always been closest to Buddhism. Some form of reincarnation without a soul. But when I read about Buddhism that’s not quite what I believe. So I kept googling and randomly found this wait but why article, which is funny because I’ve never seen it but I’ve been a big fan of the site for years. Still I digress.

    I think I’ve hit somewhat of a breakthrough in articulating my beliefs and this article helped. I think two statements can explain my beliefs well.

    1. I don’t think nothing can exist. It’s too mind boggling and as far as we can tell there’s always something.

    2. If nothing can never exist, then how can a person truly be dead? For all intents and purposes, when I die the universe is supposed to cease to exist. But I don’t think the universe can not exist.

    So how this resolves is another life is born and the universe continues to exist. Another stream of consciousness emerged and once again the universe is observing itself in some manner. In a way that’s still me. Not in the sense of a soul. But in a sense of consciousness existing. I am but one cell in the body of the universe. Life itself is the collective consciousness of the universe perceiving itself. And the universe will always exist because there can’t be nothing. I suppose my whole theory depends on there always having to be something.

  2. Rach Avatar
    Rach
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    I don't think anything can ever exist as nothing. Nothing ever disappears. The remains of the first human are still in this universe, and although its original form is what no longer exists, it's ashes are still somewhere. I did see something which I liked, "The first thing was the end on something else" and that to me makes sense.

  3. Ed Avatar
    Ed
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    Why was there an original creator instead of nothing – now if you dont split too many hairs and simply come back to the normal language we have without making a relative mess out of it – in Islam for example, God is perfect. It not human it has no shape, nor can we imagine what it is. Atheists tend to make huge mistakes thinking religious people are dumb and not thinking quite a bit about the topic.

    Coming back – God in Islam cannot be imagined. He is Eternal. Eternality in the classical sense implies an unchanging state. Something that is unchanging implies Self Sufficiency. Something self sufficient doesnt lack anything, so something that doesnt lack anything is perfect.

    But then it is evil as well? No. Evil always lacks something.. but is it good then? No. It is not about evil and good it is about being Perfect. I do not think Mercy for example is a positive conotation as much as a balancing act. I do not think Love is a positive conotation but a balancing act. It is beyond good and evil.

    So then why is there an original creator? Because it has always been there. The idea is the following. Science cannot explain absolute nothingness because it has to prove it exists. Quite a paradox.

    Therefore something was always there. Now you have to think well if things depend on other things to exist, or even corelate to each other as Hume said, if you wanna avoid causation.

    The idea is that there has to be a prime mover, an uncaused cause that started it all otherwise you will go forever. I know that maybe you already lnow this line of thinking but being rooted in common sense you probably very well know that things cannot go on forever unless something that is able to push them was there forever in the first place. Movement in itself cannot be unending, it needs a push. So if we can agree on this – that it needs a pusher, an initiator well there you go – God.

    Now probably your problem is with organized religion, not with a creator. And i totally agree. But were you to truly read Islam, or Sufi methaphysics, you would have for long understood that the religious people that puts both you and me off and religious instuttions are forms without essence. The real religion truly lies in the hidden, mystical aspect of these teachings.
    For example read Wahdat al Wujud from Ibm Arabi and why i strongly believe reality is God’s projection and God is the projector and we are merely some souls ina game level having to learing the experience of beinglimited and imperfect, for a small while.

    Id love to talk when you have time, in private.

    1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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      > Atheists tend to make huge mistakes thinking religious people are dumb and not thinking quite a bit about the topic.

      Saying somebody is wrong is not the same as saying they are stupid. Most discussions/debates are based on the principle that both sides think they are correct, and the other side is incorrect. And acting like that’s an insult, is immature and dishonest. It’s not an insult, it’s a basic property of trying to get closer to the truth.

      > God in Islam cannot be imagined.

      Making non-falsifiable claims is such a basic trick… it’s not going to help convince anyone with the ability to think rationally…

      > So then why is there an original creator? Because it has always been there.

      So you claim. Without evidence. That’s exactly the same as saying «Why is there a bigfoot? Because there is a bigfoot! ».

      Precisely the same.

      You can try to play with words as much as you can, arrange them is ways that sound smart and make it look like you’re doing rationality. But you are in fact not.

      Here’s the real bottom of the issue: there is no evidence for your God. And you can’t “talk” your way around this fact (you do try, a lot, though….).

      And things that are not supported by evidence, should not be believed in. It’s as simple as that.

      > « The idea is that there has to be a prime mover, an uncaused cause that started it all ».

      No, there doesn’t “have to be” one. We don’t have enough information about the origin of the universe to know what “needs” to “be” and what needs not be.

      And that’s perfectly fine. And it’s certainly not an excuse to believe in stuff that is not supported by evidence.

      It was the same with lightning in the past: in the past, we didn’t know what caused lightning.

      So some people said “it’s Zeus, it’s Yahweh, it’s Allah, it’s spirits, etc…” depending on their culture/religion.

      They were all wrong. It’s actually electric charge in meteorological phenomena. But they couldn’t know that, because their knowledge of science/nature was too basic to understand something this complex. So what they did is they “filled the holes” with their pre-existing beliefs.

      You are doing the **exact same thing** with the creation of the universe/reality, as they were doing with lightning. Exact same thing.

      And if someday we reach scientific knowledge advanced enough to understand how/why the universe/reality was started/created, religious people will do the same thing they did with lightning: stop shoving their god into *that* hole, and find a new/different hole to fit their god into…

      And even if we assume there “has to” be a prime mover (we don’t, but let’s say we do), that prime mover doesn’t have to be a god. It could be some kind of unthinking force of nature, like the strong nuclear force or dark energy or whatever else. ZERO reason to think it would be a thinking entity, or even an entity at all. Could just be a property of how the universe is.

      There is zero reason to think it’s a thinking being. You only think it is a thinking being because of your sacred text, and of your uncritical belief in that sacred text. That’s it.

      If you hadn’t been educated/exposed by that text, you would be open to so many other options/possibilities, but your brain limits this thinking to “it has to be a God”, because that’s the only thinking you’ve been exposed to.

      Hope you someday realize it’s a bad idea to believe in things that are not supported by evidence.

      Glad to hear any rebuke/answer you would have to my argument(s), if I’m wrong I would like to learn about it (which in my experience is very rarely the case of religious people, and again in my experience, when religiougs people start caring about whether they are wrong or not, they don’t stay religious for long…)

      1. Ed Avatar
        Ed
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        1. Here’s the real bottom of the issue: there is no evidence for your God. And you can’t “talk” your way around this fact (you do try, a lot, though….).

        There is no scientific evidence for God, not my God nor anyones God, God doesnt belong to anyone of us.

        Science does not even ask the question if there is one, so using this line, when science didn’t even bother proving one, [gathering funds and deling with such a foundational aspect(given that especially that would not even fit with the current corporate agendas, or scientism, or scientific arrogance)] is completely ignorant of the fact science describes very much hows and not whys. It can only deal with the observable as it can currently observe.

        Of course there is no evidence if science doesnt deal with supernatural facts. You are making a category mistake. On ther other side there is experiential evidence”. If you never tried it do not assume it doesnt amount as proof – that is again completely ignorant and lacking any respect for truly being open minded as many atheists calm themselves. TRY it a few years – then you can come to a conclusion. But try the real deal not corporate evangelical american bullshit.

        Eastern practices, thats the real deal.

        Anyways – arguing for experiential proof is quite easy – just because you never tasted a specific apple, and science cannot prove you that specific apple is sweet or not, doesnt mean you cannot taste it and be confident in the knowledge and experience you gain about tasting that apple. This is the core of qualia and what science will unfortunately never get to prove, no matter how hard you dream and hope.

        Some day it will be a good idea science will never satisify your need for meaning, when you truly realize that soon you will die like the rest of us truly be honest in your own intuition and heart if you are just a opiece of meat or more than that. Rely on yourself to answer the deep questions and they will take you much further than science.

        Science will never prove absolute nothingness, qualia, infinity as a real physical fact(not mathematically), and absolute randomness.

        Therefore it wont prove you that you are piece of meat or more than that. That is up to you my friend – to really question the nature of yourself. Do not deny yourself – delve deep into yourself by yourself. Science will never get the best of who you are, your thoughts and your dreams. Dont reduce yourself to nothing. It is a pity.

        2. And even if we assume there “has to” be a prime mover (we don’t, but let’s say we do), that prime mover doesn’t have to be a god. It could be some kind of unthinking force of nature, like the strong nuclear force or dark energy or whatever else. ZERO reason to think it would be a thinking entity, or even an entity at all. Could just be a property of how the universe is.

        If we assume a prime mover exists , we have to assume as well that prime mover is uncaused. Therefore logically we have to assume what is uncaused has no limitations, thus perfect. Something unconscious cannot be perfect. It something unsconscoous is lacking. This is classical philosophy, you can agree with it or not, fuck Aristotel or Plato if you want.

        Your lines of reasoning are so weak, there is no need to bother more with you. If you arent the original authoer of the article, there is no point talking to you.

        Call it whatever, God, Bigfoot, fairy tales – for me the reality of it is Perfect. I know all your god of the gaps anti arguments, lack of evidence, absence of evidence, evidence of absence, there could be’s etc.

        Ill take the leap of faith brother – religion until now only taught me to love my neighbor, to be selfless and be the best I am. All the while trying to be as awake as possible.

        If there is no purpose – tell science to stop looking for anything. We can only eat so much fuck so much sleep so much. Even if we arrive at time travelling we can sleep so much fuck so much eat so much. We die in the end. Even if we become immortal we sleep so much fuck so much, eat so much.

        If there is no purpose, there is not a bad idea to believe in something without evidence, because well…it doesnt matter.

        If there is no purpose I could just as well tell you to go fuck yourself because you are a sad frustrated fucker that didnt get anything at all and is at the mercy of scientific discovery.

        If there is a purpose, well then, I love you brother and I wish you find the truth as soon as you can.
        To me selflessness eliberated me of suffering, fear of death, it gave me intuitive knowledge I have never dreamed of, and I became extrely minimalistic in my needs. I fullfill all the best goals for a sustainable 2030 in terms of climate and social justice. Take care

        1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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          > There is no scientific evidence for God,

          And thus, nobody should believe in one. The same way we don’t believe in other things for which there is no evidence (Bigfoot, alien visitors, santa clause, etc).

          > Science does not even ask the question.

          It sure does!!

          It has asked it for centuries, and as zero evidence has been found, the scientific answer to the question is «there is no reason (evidence) to believe in God». that’s the scientific reply to the question “should you believe in a god”.

          And that quesiton has been asked, so many times, what are you even on about…

          > It can only deal with the observable as it can currently observe.

          Science does deal with the un-observable also. It deals with it by telling us there is no reason to believe in it.

          If you start believing in one un-observable thing, why not believe in all of them… ithis kind of thinking quickly gets you to believing in complete nonsense.

          > TRY it a few years

          I know dozens of scientists who were born believers (some Muslim). They definitely tried it. They say the **exact** same thing I’m telling you now. Saying I should personally try it is nonsense (if only because one can not “force” themselves to believe in something).

          > If we assume a prime mover exists , we have to assume as well that prime
          mover is uncaused. Therefore logically we have to assume what is
          uncaused has no limitations, thus perfect.

          That is absolutely utter nonsense. None of this follows from one another, at all. This is **essentially** word salad.

          And even if this were correct (it’s absolutely not), STILL no reason to think that “perfect” thing that created reality is a thinking being. Zero reason to think it is. Does not logically follow. At all.We come back to “why a (perfect) thinking being rather than a (perfect?) force of nature or a (perfect) property of reality”. You’re making an assumption you have zero reason/excuse/evidence/rationale to make.

          > Your lines of reasoning are so weak, there is no need to bother more with you. If you arent the original authoer of the article, there is no point talking to you.

          About 95% of conversations with believers about the core quesitons (existence of a deity etc) end with excuse-making like this. No answers to the actual arguments, a lot of red herrings and logical fallacies, and when they run out of rebukes, they have *some kind* of excuse like this, so they don’t have to do the adult thing and look inside of themselves to realize their position doesn’t stand up…

          If you really were certain you are correct, you would want to convince me of it (I insist that I AM open to changing my mind, and that if you can provide evidence for your God I WILL change my mind). It’s even a responsibility of the believers in most Abrahamic religions. Yet oh how so many of them run away from that responsibility…

          1. Ed Avatar
            Ed
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            I wanted to add something more brother, hope you read the other message as well.

            https://www.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/en/news/78493

            This is a scientific study with strong evidence that is from August 24th 2023. If these results are true – it perfectly aligns with the sufi methaphysics, that truly reality is merely a projection from God and that consciousness is a fundamental of that projection.

            Take care brother

          2. Ed Avatar
            Ed
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            1. And thus, nobody should believe in one. The same way we don’t believe in other things for which there is no evidence (Bigfoot, alien visitors, santa clause, etc).

            It is a free world, with great results. Drama slips around everywhere. Science is not the ultimate decider in life bro, scientism as you keep pushing, seema to want that.

            2. That is absolutely utter nonsense. None of this follows from one another, at all. This is **essentially** word salad.

            And even if this were correct (it’s absolutely not), STILL no reason to think that “perfect” thing that created reality is a thinking being. Zero reason to think it is. Does not logically follow. At all.We come back to “why a (perfect) thinking being rather than a (perfect?) force of nature or a (perfect) property of reality”. You’re making an assumption you have zero reason/excuse/evidence/rationale to make.

            It actually isnt, maybe you should do some philosophy, it seems you are lacking. It is perfectly logical. If you dont believe me use that ChatGPT 4 reasoning tool to get a faster result on logical reasoning.
            Based on classical philosophy, something that is UNCAUSED is NOT LIMITED. if you dont like this line of argument sure – something NECESSARY THEN. An entity/something necessary exists in itself so that means it is SELF SUFFICIENT. TO BE SELF SUFFICIENT IN THOSE TERMS meana to NOT lack anything.
            A force is already a limitation as it implies only that. A property is a property. You,re the one using the wrong worda my friend.
            I stated from the very Beginning Islam doesnt state what GOD really is nor can we imagine.

            But it is mentioned in Islam as a perfect entity. Perfection implies completeness. Classical phosophy states that as well. You delve too much in the ifs instead of dealing with arguments at least already existiing. I simply use classical philosophy. Educate yourself then we can talk more.

            You know dozens of scientists who were muslims. Well, fine. I know dozen of atheists who became religious. Life is not a straigth path. Maybe your muslim scientists friends will become wise again when they get old and realize science will never explain anything, or maybe my religius friends will become atheists again. That is not an argument :))

            It has asked it for centuries, and as zero evidence has been found, the scientific answer to the question is «there is no reason (evidence) to believe in God». that’s the scientific reply to the question “should you believe in a god”.

            I think you should read a but of philosophy of science. Science has asked if there is a God and realized it is nowhere to be found in the universe. DUH. It is suoernatural. It cannot be proven by scientific means. You yourself said “non falsifiable”.

            So you cannot exoect science to give proof of this.

            Also as you said why not believe all non observable things?

            Because i believe in something Perfect and complete. The aim is for the Ultimate. If there are other whatever Hindu Gods, i dont believe in them, they are too niche.
            I preffer the untangible, perfect conscious ideal.

            If you really were certain you are correct, you would want to convince me of it (I insist that I AM open to changing my mind, and that if you can provide evidence for your God I WILL change my mind). It’s even a responsibility of the believers in most Abrahamic religions. Yet oh how so many of them run away from that responsibility…

            Brother, i am so uncertain. That is the beauty of it. You have no clue how much I have read and doubt almost everyday, how much I love the scientific endeavour, but I cannot deny my dissatisfaction.
            I realize that I EXIST and I have states and moments neither psychology nor science will ever explain(as I already wrote to you about experiential proof, about the quality of QUALIA).

            My uncertainty is the beauty of it all. It makes me realize the mystery of life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced.

            Do not change your mind brother – you need doubt and skepticism. Instead try changing your heart. Verify everything, but keep a balance. Dont be intimidated by scientific authority nor fear to enterntain wild ideas.
            If there is no purpose – much more you should entertain wild ideas and try religion. It is absolutely crazy, but in a purposeless world, everything is allowed 😉

            No words ever satisfy me nor you. I only show you I can have counter arguments but no argument settles anything. Hence it is called a faith. Kierkegaard well said we need to jump into irrationality to find more about life. You need to taste it, to find out if it is true brother. You need to experience it. You dont read about your own life experience in scientific journals. You live it with good and bad, with joy and fear. For this you need to try. Now i can help you try it out. But it needs time. Giving it a chance is not easy. You dont even have to accept there is a God. The practices I do are strictly practical. I practice Sufism. But for that we need to discuss in private.

            Much love for you brother. I get your point. I really do. And I hope I said one thing that helped you. If not – i wish you all the best.

            I will leave you a youtube link i found beautiful, watch from minute 8:10, the left hemisphere chapter

            https://youtu.be/dFs9WO2B8uI?si=SyduXV11-y-lunrD

            1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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              > Science is not the ultimate decider in life bro, scientism as you keep pushing, seema to want that.

              Science is absolutely the best decider we have right now to get to the truth of matters. It’s why it’s so widely used, and it’s why it shows so many impressive results in how much it has improved our lives and our understanding of the unvierse.

              There might be something better somewhere, so we can’t say “ultimate”, but nobody has *shown* something better, so until somebody does, science is absolutely the best decider in life, of the truth of matters (like this question of the existence of god).

              > It is perfectly logical.

              Then *prove* it is. You have not. Just *saying* something is logical doesn’t prove it is. It is THE ENTIRE POINT of logic that you are supposed to be able to prove the logic of what you say. You have not proven anything like that, just made assumptions…

              > If you dont believe me use that ChatGPT 4 reasoning tool to get a faster result on logical reasoning.

              If you think GPT4 is going to help here, then you have **no idea** what it is and how it works… (hint: part of my day job is working with/creating LLMs like GPT).

              > Based on classical philosophy, something that is UNCAUSED is NOT LIMITED. if you dont like this line of argument sure something NECESSARY THEN. An entity/something necessary exists in itself so that means it is SELF SUFFICIENT. TO BE SELF SUFFICIENT IN THOSE TERMS meana to NOT lack anything. A force is already a limitation as it implies only that.

              This does absolutely nothing to demonstrate that the universe was created by a being rather than a force, or **anything** else.

              It is incredible that you do not realize you are *defining* God into existence… you’re starting from the conclusion. You start from “god exists” to get to “god exists” here.

              The fact you think that «UNCAUSED is NOT LIMITED» will in **any way** help you with proving the existence of a God, is just really shocking. Again: this is literally word salad. Either that or you’re doing a terrible job at explaining your argument (and as I’m already familiar with the argument: it’s both…).

              You’re essentially presenting a “unnecessarily complicated” version of the Kalam cosmological argument.

              > I stated from the very Beginning Islam doesnt state what GOD really is nor can we imagine.

              And I explained in the very beginning that is a logical fallacy, you’re putting forward an unfalsifiable claim, a classic logical trap, an extremely dishonest one. It’s just crazy you don’t realize that’s what it is…

              « I do not state what bigfoot realy is, nor can we imagine ».

              > I simply use classical philosophy. Educate yourself then we can talk more.

              You have presented absolutely nothing with which I was not already familiar. But it’s an incredibly classic attitude of the believers to imagine their interlocutor is just ignorant (and before you go there, I don’t think you’re ignorant, i think you’re wrong, and endoctrinated).

              > You know dozens of scientists who were muslims.

              Not what I said.

              > Well, fine. I know dozen of atheists who became religious.

              And you didn’t understand *why* I said this. You should re-read what I wrote, you’re clearly just flying over it…

              I wasn’t making an argument that “because I know muslims who changed their mind, you should”, I was explaining that your argument that I should “just try it” was incorrect because “others have already tried it”.

              Get it now?

              > That is not an argument :))

              It wasn’t meant to be an argument (at least not the argument you thought) but clearly you didn’t bother to actually think about what was written…

              > and realize science will never explain anything,

              Science doesn’t explain anything?

              It doesn’t explain the moon cycles, lightning, bacteria, prisms, and about a million other things? Now that’s interresting. Elaborate…

              > DUH. It is suoernatural. It cannot be proven by scientific means.

              And therefore, like every thing that can not be proven to exist, one should not believe it exists.

              > It cannot be proven by scientific means.

              Show me **anything** that can be proven by non-scientific means. One thing. A single one.

              > You yourself said “non falsifiable”.

              Yes, and therefore, logically, should not be believed. It’s shocking that you know so much about philosophy, yet are this ignorant about something this basic in philosophy of science / logic.

              > So you cannot exoect science to give proof of this.

              And therefore you have no reason to believe in it.

              Any reason you have to believe in it, also applies to bigfoot, faeries, santa claus, aliens, etc.

              All those things “you can not expect science to give you proof of this”, all those things are “non falsifiable”. Like your God. There’s **exactly** as many reasons to believe in your God as there is to believe in bigfoot. **count** the reasons, you’ll see I’m right.

              >_Because i believe in something Perfect and complete.

              I define bigfoot as something perfect and complete.

              I also define Zeus as something perfect and complete.

              I also define the universe as something perfect and complete.

              See how it goes?

              > If there are other whatever Hindu Gods, i dont believe in them, they are too niche.

              It is insane that you do not see the hypocrisy in that thinking.

              If another god has the same amount of evidence as your God, and you believe in your God rather than that God, you are showing **extreme** illogical thinking.

              How “niche” something is has **nothing** to do with whether it is true or not. At one point, “one should wash their hands before delivering babies” was **extremely** niche, it was believed by ONE person in the ENTIRE world. It was also TRUE.

              So whether or not something is true, and whether something is niche or not, have nothing to do with one another. That’s a **basic** logical fallacy, and you not noticing it is, clearly shows how you’re not at all trained to think logically…

              > I preffer the untangible, perfect conscious ideal.

              You mean Zeus. Or zaraostra. Or whomever the mormon’s guy’s name was.

              The notion of “my god is defined as perfect, untangible, etc” was invented **long** before Islam was a thing, and has been used **hundreds** of times after that. The fact that out of these HUNDREDS of gods, you choose the one from Islam, CLEARLY shows you don’t care about what is true, you care about what you were endoctrinated with.

              > Brother, i am so uncertain.

              You don’t talk like you are.

              > You have no clue how much I have read a

              From the arguments you use, and from the logical fallacies you are unable to detect, it’s **extremely clear** your reading has been very much slanted to one side rather than the other. You should start reading things that go against your position (I have, a lot. I’ve read the Bible twice, the Quran on audiobook one, and read **a lot** of commentary on both).

              > I have states and moments neither psychology nor science will ever explain(

              You just said “I can predict the future”. Essentially.

              You can’t. Therefore you can’t make that statement. For so long people thought we wouldn’t figure out what lightning is. They didn’t even think of it as a question.

              That is NOT an excuse to believe in things for which there is no evidence.

              > Do not change your mind brother

              I WANT to change my mind if I am incorrect. You should want that too. But from talking with you that’s clearly not the path you are on.

            2. Ed Avatar
              Ed
              Hide

              I define bigfoot as something perfect and complete.

              I also define Zeus as something perfect and complete.

              I also define the universe as something perfect and complete.

              See how it goes?

              No – how can something peerfect and complete be different from another??

              Semantics brother. Yoh wrote the same thing with different names. That is why i specificay said, call it God, Bigfoot, whatever.

              I WANT to change my mind if I am incorrect. You should want that too. But from talking with you that’s clearly not the path you are on.

              Do not change your mind. You will never be able to know everything brother, especially with the mind.

              You just said “I can predict the future”. Essentially.

              Well you said that as well when you said there is no evidence of God, therefore no reason to believe.

              Science doesn’t explain anything?

              It doesn’t explain the moon cycles, lightning, bacteria, prisms, and about a million other things? Now that’s interresting. Elaborate…

              You surely know it doesnt unless you are in denial for real :))
              Google a few things science cannot explain or prove and prepare for reality.

              And yes it will never explain everything. Because you will never know what is the end of everything. Science cannot even prove the possible one time exclusive existence of a hidden force in the that then vanished forever. A one time hidden variable.

              Please be more humble in your research and understand I used classical philosophy.
              Just because you said it doesnt have a to be a perfect entity following my logical line of reasoning doesnt exclude the possibility of it.

              Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You have a belief as well, not absolute proof there is no God. You believe there is no God, I believe there is a God. Very simple.

              From the arguments you use, and from the logical fallacies you are unable to detect, it’s **extremely clear** your reading has been very much slanted to one side rather than the other. You should start reading things that go against your position (I have, a lot. I’ve read the Bible twice, the Quran on audiobook one, and read **a lot** of commentary on both).

              It is perfectly logical.

              Then *prove* it is. You have not. Just *saying* something is logical doesn’t prove it is. It is THE ENTIRE POINT of logic that you are supposed to be able to prove the logic of what you say. You have not proven anything like that, just made assumptions…

              I proved it is a logical argument by showing you the premises. If you dont accept it that is another problem. Try GPT4 out tho, youll find many useful things 😉

              > So you cannot exoect science to give proof of this.

              And therefore you have no reason to believe in it.

              And therefore you have no reason to believe the opposite :))
              Cmon man, try harder.

              Read them as much as you want – without the practical side, there is no underatanding of the deeper truths.

              Have you ever loved brother? Do you still feel human?

              Yes, and therefore, logically, should not be believed. It’s shocking that you know so much about philosophy, yet are this ignorant about something this basic in philosophy of science / logic.

              Man, are you reading my comments jumping over it??? Seriously, you didnt even read my comment.

              I clearly said Kierkegard said to find out more about life one should step into irationality, to take a leap of faith.

              Of course it is a matter of the heart, not everything is logical. For what we know we cannot even be sure about our reality.

              Read my comment in depth. Try getting the gist of it, and watch the youtube link i sent you.

              Intuition is key to understanding why you are here.

              I WANT to change my mind if I am incorrect. You should want that too. But from talking with you that’s clearly not the path you are on.

              It is insane that you do not see the hypocrisy in that thinking. –
              I was being sarcastic. Sorry if you didnt get it – but you played a false dillema card there. Doesnt mean if I believe in God, i cannot verify other Gods through theological/philosophical reasoning.

              I was where you were, always arrogant and prepared with my list of fallacies, but I got old and realized it is so futile and life is passing by and no one still can answer me why am I here in the first place. Why do I exist. And i realized science will never be able to explain that.

              It either throws a semantic of something almost nothing for which again there is no explanation, or a shitty “brute fact” that the universe just is.

              I am sure in your heart you know that. I hope you will acknowledge it.

              And no, science never delved into proving if God exists or not. Do some reading and be humble once again.

              I am sure you are young and energetic. Dont worry, life will unfold to you. If you are old… pheww you must be a very sad man.

              Brother, i will stop here. Write all you want, i will unfortunately not read anymore as it a neverending talk. Life is beautiful, I gotta live it one moment at a time You win :). Enjoy your life.

            3. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              > No – how can something peerfect and complete be different from another??

              > Semantics brother. Yoh wrote the same thing with different names. That is why i specificay said, call it God, Bigfoot, whatever.

              You don’t understand the argument. It’s fine, you were programmed not to understand it.

              > call it God, Bigfoot, whatever.

              Bigfoot (as I define it for the purpose of this argument) and God (Allah) are extremely different.

              Both created the universe. But while Allah was involved with Mohamed, the Quran, conquest and all that, that’s not the case of Bigfoot.

              Bigfoot created the universe for the **only** purpose of then walking naked in the woods, trying to show himself to people for only a few seconds, while at the same time trying not to get photographed. That’s how he has fun. He didn’t have a prophet, no holy book, no contact with humans at all.

              Now, the argument, that you don’t understand, is that there is **exactly** as many philosophical arguments for the existence of Allah, as there is for the existence of Bigfoot as described here. And there is also as much scientific evidence for both (zero).

              > Do not change your mind. You will never be able to know everything brother,

              I absolutely want to know if there is a God or not. If there is a God, and I was able to learn that he exists, and I failed at learning it, I am **pretty sure** that no matter which God it is, he/she will be pretty pissed at me.

              > Well you said that as well when you said there is no evidence of God, therefore no reason to believe.

              No I did not. There **is** no evidence for God. I didn’t say there **never** will be evidence of God. See the difference between saying “there is no evidence now” (what I said) and “there will never be any evidence” (what you said).

              There might be evidence of God in the future. And THE DAY THAT HAPPENS, I will believe. But not before. Believing before there is evidence, is **bad thinking**.

              > You surely know it doesnt unless you are in denial for real :))

              > Google a few things science cannot explain or prove and prepare for reality.

              Ok you clearly have some issue understanding basic sentences… Do you not understand the difference between “everything” and “anything” ?? is English your second language maybe?

              > I used classical philosophy.

              Using philosophy ALONE to answer questions about what exists or does not exist in reality, **is a mistake**.

              You NEED to ALSO use facts, if you are going to think about reality and existence. And there is **no factual evidence** of God.

              You can not come to conclusions about reality without examining reality Your argument comes to conclusions about reality without integrating facts (examinations) about reality. That’s a mistake, a logical error. A basic and obvious one.

              Tell me, in your argument, which part is connected to reality (observation, etc), and which is not (pure thinking/philosophy) ?

              You CAN NOT prove God with only logic and no fact.

              Because with “only logic and no fact”, you can prove *anything*, and reducio ad absurdum tells us therefore you can prove **nothing**. BASIC philosophy/logic…

              > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

              I at no point claimed evidence of absence. You are using a straw-man fallacy argument.

              > You have a belief as well, not absolute proof there is no God

              Nope. You are confusing a belief with the absence of a belief. I **lack** a belief in a God. That is NOT the same thing as having a belief in something.

              > You believe there is no God,

              Nope. It is impressive I can explain my position so many times and so clearly, and still you get it wrong. That **clearly** shows you’re not actually reading what I write, just repeating your indoctrination without thinking about the topic.

              https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

              > I proved it is a logical argument by showing you the premises.

              That is **not** how proof works…

              If you want to present your argument in the classical form, with a clear definition of the premises, and of the logic of your reasonning, I would LOVE for you to do that. PLEASE do. You have not so far, you skipped like 90% of the steps…

              > And therefore you have no reason to believe the opposite :))

              You do not understand the difference between not believing, and believing the opposite…

            4. Ed Avatar
              Ed
              Hide

              1. Atheism as a Belief: When atheism is defined as the belief that no deities exist, it is considered a positive claim about the nature of reality. This requires a belief in a universe that is self-contained and not dependent on a deity or deities for its existence and operations.
              2. Atheism as a Lack of Belief: Alternatively, some define atheism more broadly as the absence of belief in the existence of deities. This definition does not necessarily involve a positive claim but rather a withholding of belief until sufficient evidence is presented.

              Semantics my friend. Because you see no evidence of God scientifically, you hurry up to conclude there is no reason to believe there is a God. In itself you believe the lack of evidence, because realistically you cannot know, since science didn’t finish their endeavours(and again since you completely FAIL to understand science doesnt and never tackles this question). Seriously how ignorant can you be to understand that tue premise of God in all religion is that is is outside the universe, encompassing creation? How can you expect to find something limitless and perfect confined within the Universe, which has certain limitations? That is plain stupid. Seriously, what is your age brother? Are you trolling?

              Here you go, to defy a bit your “job in working with LLMs” a little great logical reasoning analogy why you seem to fail understanding Science DOES NOT asl that question and if it asks, it is simply scientists tackling belief, and using philosophy NOT science.

              Consider the analogy of a fisherman who casts his net into the sea. His net is designed to catch fish, not to capture the sunlight that dances on the water’s surface. If the fisherman were to conclude that because his net contains no sunlight, there is no sunlight, this would be an erroneous conclusion. The net simply isn’t the right tool for “capturing” sunlight.

              In the same way, science is a tool designed to understand the natural world through empirical evidence and testable theories. It’s like the fisherman’s net, well-suited for certain kinds of questions about the material universe. If science has not found evidence of God, an atheist might argue that this is similar to the net not catching sunlight—not because the sunlight isn’t there, but because the net (or science, in this case) isn’t designed to capture that kind of thing.

              The absence of evidence in scientific inquiry isn’t necessarily evidence of absence, especially when it comes to metaphysical entities or concepts that may not be empirically testable or observable. The question of God’s existence is often considered to be outside the purview of empirical science and within the realm of philosophy and theology, where different methods of exploration are used.
              The statement “there’s no reason to believe in God because there is no scientific evidence” assumes that scientific evidence is the only valid reason to believe in something. This perspective is often associated with scientism, the view that science is the ultimate authority on any question of fact or existence. Oh by the way, it is a quote – go to stanford plato and educate yourself as, you ignorantly said. Scientism.

              However, many would argue that there are other valid forms of evidence and reasoning outside of the empirical sciences, such as philosophical arguments, personal experiences, and historical accounts, which can provide reasons to believe in God. Therefore, from a philosophical standpoint, the statement can be seen as overly restrictive and not accounting for non-empirical forms of knowledge and understanding. So, in a broader sense of reasoning and evidence, the statement could be considered incorrect.

              Now you are either ignorant, or stupid to consider the analogy wrong. Plain seriously.

              Once more
              The statement that using philosophy alone to answer questions about existence is a mistake reflects a viewpoint that emphasizes empirical evidence and the scientific method as the primary means to ascertain facts about reality. However, there are several points to consider that illustrate why this viewpoint may not be entirely accurate:

              1. **Scope of Philosophy**: Philosophy is not limited to empirical evidence but also includes metaphysics, ethics, logic, and epistemology, which address questions that empirical science may not be able to, such as the nature of being, the existence of moral values, and the foundations of knowledge itself.

              2. **Foundational Role of Philosophy**: Science itself is grounded in philosophical concepts, such as the nature of evidence, causation, and the philosophy of the scientific method. These are not empirical questions but philosophical ones.

              3. **Limits of Empiricism**: Empirical science operates within the domain of observable phenomena. It does not typically address questions outside of this domain, such as the existence of abstract objects (like numbers), the nature of consciousness, or why there is something rather than nothing.

              4. **Interdisciplinary Inquiry**: Many questions about reality are best addressed through a combination of disciplines, including philosophy and science. Philosophy provides the critical framework within which scientific findings can be interpreted and understood.

              Saying that using philosophy alone is a mistake may undervalue the role that philosophical inquiry has played and continues to play in our understanding of the world. While empirical science provides us with robust tools for understanding the physical universe, philosophy allows us to explore and make sense of aspects of reality that are not as easily quantified or observed.

              The statement “with ‘only logic and no fact’, you can prove *anything*, and reductio ad absurdum tells us therefore you can prove **nothing**” misunderstands the role of logic and facts in philosophical argumentation, as well as the nature of reductio ad absurdum.

              1. **Role of Logic and Facts**: Logic is the framework that allows us to make inferences based on given premises or facts. It is not true that you can prove anything with only logic; you can only prove what is logically consistent with the accepted premises. Facts are necessary to ground logical arguments in reality.

              2. **Reductio ad Absurdum**: This is a form of argument where you assume a statement is true and then show that this assumption leads to a contradiction or an absurd conclusion. It does not imply that “you can prove nothing”; instead, it’s a way to disprove a proposition by showing that it leads to illogical or impossible conclusions.

              3. **Need for Both in Argumentation**: Effective argumentation requires both logic (to structure the argument) and facts (to ground the argument). Logic alone does not produce meaningful conclusions about the real world without factual premises. Facts without logic cannot form coherent ideas.
              Guess what, ill use a fact. I EXISt. Logic comes iver explaining why. I used both.

              In conclusion, your statement misrepresents both the process of logical argumentation and the use of reductio ad absurdum, which are both well-established components of philosophical inquiry.

              Mathematics is indeed an example of a discipline where logical consistency is paramount and where many truths can be derived through pure logic without direct recourse to physical facts. Mathematical proofs are based on a set of axioms and definitions, and from these, mathematicians derive theorems through deductive reasoning.

              Seriously. Denying maths. You are making an idiot of yourself with that statement.

              Again coming back to bigfoot, fairies, God.
              SOMETHING INFINITE, PERFECT AND COMPLETE CANNOT BE DIFFERENT FROM SOMETHING INFINITE DIFFERENT AND COMPLETE. They cannot have different characteristics. I dont get how you dont get that.

              There might be evidence of God in the future. And THE DAY THAT HAPPENS, I will believe. But not before. Believing before there is evidence, is **bad thinking**.

              You yourself said it is unfalsifiable. THERE WILL NEVER BE EVIDENCE OF GOD.

              JEEZ, they should fire you bro, you clearly have a bad understanding of the grounds science operates on.

              And ill spare one minute of my life telling you why.

              If you accept we have free will(which by your statements you seem to narrow minded to even acceept that, avoiding even the problematic discussion in tthe youtube link I gave you), the whole point of the Bible and the Quran which boasted to have read and listened to(how, with your ears shut?) Is to tell you, you are here for a Test, in this illusory world and you have the free will to choose between Good and Bad(its much more complex but ill keep easy for you).

              IF GOD WOULD BE PROVEN SCIENTIFICALLY, OR IF GOD WOULD SHOW HIMSELF FULLY(and here I dont mean people who do miracles, I mean GOD showing Himself), how the fuck does that not defies the purpose of the test????? FREE WILL IS THE PREREQUISITE, YOU NEED FREE WILL FOR THE TEST TO WORK, GOD SHOWS UP, NO FREE WILL.

              Seriously man, your pride and arrogance is so big you cant even see your own ass. I presented you classical arguments which you can find everywhere if you READ, you tell they are word salad, literally dismissing people like Aristotle and many other huge philosophers, and literally even great scientists like Max Planck who write extensively on these ideas.

              And you give me a link to logical fallacies when your whole discussion is imbibed in what ifs and logical fallacies. Using philosophy ALONE to answer questions about what exists or does not exist in reality, **is a mistake**.

              Youre more than narrow – you’re a troll dude.

              Seriously. I am done with you, i truly wish you all the best, please do basic reading, you cannot understand the very basics of how science operates. Please. I am done here, I am closing my account. I wanted to talk to the author he seemed reasonable. But if is you, then jeez, work it our more bro. Fucking scientism.

              One more thing
              We come back to “why a (perfect) thinking being rather than a (perfect?) force of nature or a (perfect) property of reality”.

              Because both forces and properties are contingent.
              Forces are interactions that govern the behavior of objects in the universe, like gravity, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force. Properties are attributes or qualities that objects possess, such as mass, charge, or spin.

              They are considered contingent because:

              1. **Physical laws could be different**: There is no logical contradiction in imagining a universe with different forces or properties, suggesting they are not necessary but contingent on the specific conditions of our universe.

              2. **Science is provisional**: Our understanding of these forces and properties is based on current scientific knowledge, which can change with new discoveries or theories.

              3. **Metaphysical speculation**: Philosophically, it’s possible to conceive of a different set of forces and properties, indicating that their existence and characteristics are not necessary but contingent on the actual configuration of our universe.

              Another analogy for your “intellect”
              Library Analogy

              Imagine a library filled with books. The books (representing the universe) follow certain rules: they’re organized by genre, author, or some other system (representing the laws of physics). Now, one might think that the system of organization itself (the force or property) is what created the books because it dictates how they’re arranged.

              However, this is like saying the Dewey Decimal System (a force or property of library organization) could exist independently and create the books it organizes. In reality, the system is contingent on the existence of books and a library; it didn’t create them. Moreover, the system depends on librarians (thinking beings) who invented it and apply it. Without books and librarians, the organizational system is meaningless.

              In this analogy, claiming the organizational system itself created the books is similar to claiming that a force or property created the universe. It overlooks the need for an underlying reality (the books) and an organizing intelligence (the librarians) that applies the system purposefully. Just as the Dewey Decimal System cannot exist without books or librarians, a force or property cannot exist without the physical reality it describes, nor can it be the cause of that reality. This suggests a category mistake, attributing to the system (force or property) a power of causation that it doesn’t inherently possess.

              Here’s another analogy for your shitty what ifs
              The Dance Analogy

              Consider the concept of a dance, which involves movements that follow certain rhythms and patterns. The dance itself (representing the force or property) is a structured form of movement that can be beautiful and complex, but it doesn’t exist independently of dancers (representing the entities of the universe).

              Expecting the dance to create something is like expecting the concept of movement, or the choreography, to generate dancers out of nothing. But choreography is a set of instructions that guides existing dancers; it cannot create dancers. It requires the presence of dancers who can interpret and execute the moves. Without dancers, there is no dance, only the potential for one if dancers were to appear.

              In this analogy, expecting the dance to create dancers is akin to expecting a force or property to create the universe. It overlooks the fact that movement (force or property) is an expression or a description of what dancers (entities within the universe) do, not something that can bring dancers into existence. The creative spark that brings dancers to the stage is akin to the intentional act of a creator, not the passive patterns of movement that the dancers follow.

              Here’s another fucking analogy showing how little you understand what property or force is no matter how perfect “or fundamental”.

              Imagine the blueprint of a house (representing the force or property of reality). A blueprint is a detailed plan that outlines the structure and features of the house, much like how forces and properties define the structure and behavior of the universe. However, a blueprint on its own cannot build a house. It is a passive object; it requires builders (analogous to a creative agent) to interpret the plans and physically construct the house.

              Expecting the blueprint (force or property) to create a house (the universe) is like expecting the lines on paper to transform into walls and roofs without builders, materials, or energy. The blueprint is necessary for the builders to know what to do, but it’s not sufficient on its own to bring a house into existence. In the same way, physical laws (forces and properties) are necessary for the universe to function as it does, but they don’t have the creative capacity to bring the universe into existence from nothing. They require a pre-existing reality where they can be effective, and that reality’s origin is what’s in question when discussing the universe’s beginning.

              Realistically you are too arrogant, that is why you dont want to believe in a God. Your pride is higher than your humility.

              Write all you want, the thick virtual air will see your statements, not wasting my time.

  4. Michele Klew Avatar
    Michele Klew
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    Okay so it’s a lot more simpler than you think . I have a tendency to read to much into somethings by over thinking things I just need to believe that there’s a deeper meaning behind everything so I tend to overlook the plan and simple things that just are what they are, not saying that they don’t serve a purpose cuz they do. just not one that is complex in how it connects. I struggle with this cuz everything is connected in one way or another weather you understand the connection or not it still exists and I need to know. The saying or age old question, “Can you make something out of nothing?” Well it’s a trick question because the answer is confusing so let’s think about it for a second. Ask yourself questions like what does the words something and nothing have in common ? Wwwwait for it. Lol yes your correct the “thing” which implies that before you can have nothing you have to start with something and it has to be the same thing why the same thing it’s because something is addition of and nothing is the subtraction of the same thing how do you think you end up with nothing. Ok so lets dive a little deeper let’s say me, I’m something right? untill time makes me nothing again. Everything has a cycle of production. Then is it safe to say that the cycle of production is on a continuous loop creating the same thing over and over again by adding and subtract from both sides of the same object pulling it apart and putting it back together again in one cycle an object or thing will be created, destroyed, and reproduced and destroyed again then starts all over again however with each completed cycle the object changes or mutates which you may know it’s called evolving. Why do things evolve? Why is evolving so important? Because evolving makes everything better like an upgrade to ensure that our species or object continues to exist and stays valuable and useful otherwise it will cease to exit.” what doesn’t grow or evolve or adapt and thrive will eventually wither and die during the natural selection process,” all cycles only run in one direction forward.That’s why most production cycles take soooo long to end before starting all over again that’s why we don’t notice it’s happening because the changes happen gradually and go unnoticed untill the process is completed but chances you’ll still be alive to see it or even remember that things were different is zero it will never happen because we weren’t meant to we are the old models.Basically thrown away like a proto type to make way for the new and improved models with up grades kinda like all of our technology today their creators come out with a newer and improved version of the same product yearly or every other year I don’t know, I guess it all depends on what the company sets as a timeline for themselves to make improvements and upgrades this is done to grow your company, boost sells, keep your costumers loyal and creates new customers and doubles sometimes triples your profits. To me that sounds like a lot of work and hardship just to have the laws of physics rear it’s ugly head a destroy everything you built in a matter of minutes over a tiny mistake it doesn’t take much to destroy but takes forever to build and rebuild like it always does. “what goes up must come down,” and it will eventually I promise you that and it will happen when you least expect it . Right as you start enjoying all the profits from all your hard work and your feeling happy and secure and proud of yourself for what you accomplished. Then you’re expected to suck it up and rebuild what took most your life to build you’ll never live long enough to get back to where you were its just sad. I can only imagine how it might make someone feel. The only way I could relate to someone that’s happened to is how I feel when I just got done cleaning my house which takes me forever to do now that im no spring chicken anymore is the disrespect and the unapreation I feel when someone comes right in behind me and not only makes another mess that’s messier than before but then leaves it knowing I will eventually end up cleaning it again cuz I’ll get tired of waiting for them to do it. Sorry for rambling on I hope somethings I said made sense. Let me know what you think I could be totally wrong. Lol

    1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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      Such word salad… it looks like this post is an incredibly strong word-salad-magnet…

    2. Michele Klew Avatar
      Michele Klew
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      Ok simply put you can’t have nothing unless there was something to make nothing of the same thing.lol example you have a pie (something) when eaten there will be (nothing) of the same pie.

  5. wolfe Avatar
    wolfe
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    isn’t this the same debate as whether there is an afterlife or not ,, humans will question and theorise all their brains will allow them to because they Fear what they can’t and won’t comprehend let alone accept ,, that maybe just maybe there is no answer to the various amount of questions there is on one single topic that keeps everyone awake at night “Why?”

    many looked down on questioners as fools for reaching for what was not appropriate to the majority yet they still praised the said questioners for giving them answers they never thought to guess themselves.

    why is there nothing ? why is there something ? why isn’t there nothing ? why isn’t there something ? and so on these questions swallow us whole ,,, probably because the answer/s to these why’s just Don’t exist ,, a dog chasing it’s own tail in a world where everywhere you look is a license plate ,, it really makes you think why we even let these thoughts surround us when we ourselves still haven no answer to the Why itself of existence and more ,, only what we’re taught or learn for ourselves is what we’re able to answer to guess to solve but Why

    and for me i won’t deny that this very same sentence and much more on these types of topics don’t take up my time but when you really think of it such a widespread of a question without any little details for us to 100% come to an agreement on ,, why not just question the details even more so that the wideness of the question will soon MAYBE shrink in due time for humans to come to a conclusion or even put a pin on the board instead of just aimlessly wondering “Why ?” to each and everything

    ah but that is the human nature isn’t it not ? curiosity killed the cat and cats themselves are beside humans ,, many cases curiosity has killed many yet we still chase after it tongue hanging out of mouth hungry and desperate for the answer the Satisfaction to bring us back to give us reason to soothe our worries and fears of our worth and our need to accept that existence itself is just what it is ,, but once again we still don’t know what this very existence is for in the first place so how can we not question it ?

    1. Michele Klew Avatar
      Michele Klew
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      The reality of the fact that we only exist as part of a chain reaction of events that happened who knows how many years ago. This is why we can only move forward in time.However in space there’s no resistance and so things traveling in a forward motions tend to pick up speed the eventually loop back around I guess maybe that why things get caught up in different gravitational pulls that’s now our little solar system almost like a bowl of soup .We are tiny, like a spec of dust in our universe I believe everything that was ever created is connected in one way or another moving forward creating as it goes and making improvements along the way . In with the new out with the old with each cycle it takes.

  6. Dr, Ameer Iqbal  Avatar
    Dr, Ameer Iqbal
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    Matter is actually a philosophical and abstract category which is a term given by the physicists for the eternal existence of something – space-time infinity ! It exists eternally but not in one specific form but in infinite forms. As it exists in infinite forms it has no form of itself ! The main forms of it are relative nothing or empty space at one end and the unimaginable diversity on the other side. It is everywhere therefore beyond any space and it is eternal so beyond any time. As it has no structure of its own and beyond space and time therefore it is an absolute nothing .As it exists in infinite forms it is also an absolute something.To conclude matter is the unity of or superposition of an absolute something and an absolute something! QED

    1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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      Word salad…

      Just because you can get words to form a sentence, doesn’t mean they relate in any way to anything outside of your imagination…

  7. Steve Avatar
    Steve
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    Because something is something. I have no idea what that means truly but that’s my best guess that I came up with.

  8. Anon Avatar
    Anon
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    Some theories of quantum mechanics says that nothingness is unstable. So in a vacuum, particles would pop in and out of existence.
    Also found this link.

    1. Anon Avatar
      Anon
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      https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/much-ado-about-nothing/
      (Sorry link somehow was not there)

    2. Michele Klew Avatar
      Michele Klew
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      So Nothingness is something because if it wasn’t it couldn’t be unstable correct. The universe is all about unity and balance which makes things stable

  9. Wes_tib Avatar
    Wes_tib
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    the only reason we ask ourselves this question is because there is something.

    the existence of a physical reality is a probability of 1 on an infinite amount of nothing.

    And this deafening chance is obscured by the fact that only people living in this physical world can ask themselves the question: Why is there something?

    1. Enzo Avatar
      Enzo
      Hide

      How did you get this probability?

  10. Water waltz Avatar
    Water waltz
    Hide

    I have been thinking about this too, and this thought really is disturbing me so much to the point of me wanting to scream loudly sometimes just to get this all off my mind, it’s too much to handle all this “Why? “…. I mean it doesn’t make sense at all, I wish I could just push this thought away but it keeps coming back into my mind everytime I tried to not think about it…. I don’t know what to do and there’s no one to talk to, they’d never understand..

  11. Ronald Olzheim Avatar
    Ronald Olzheim
    Hide

    Just a theory:
    nothing is relative
    Some things can be something while other things can be a thing
    Material = something (black)
    love = nothing (white)
    but nothing over time can be something (grey)
    this is something to think about.
    What do you guys think?

    1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
      Hide

      What do you guys think?

      Complete non-sense.

      You asked…

      None of that made sense or had any usefulness, at all… This has no explanatory power, and does not answer anything…

      Black and white together do make gray, but that has no logical connection to the concept of nothingness, there is no such a thing as “partially not existing”, existence is a strict binary, things exist, or they do not, there is no middle point there where something has partial existence.

  12. Rufus Avatar
    Rufus
    Hide

    A frog’s brain is not capable of understanding economics or the sociological impact of Justin Bieber. You can spend as much time as you like attempting to teach a frog these things, but its grey matter is simply not up to the task of understanding them.

    The human brain also has its limitations – although we like to think otherwise – and I suspect our grey matter is simply not up to the task of understanding why there is something rather than nothing.

    1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
      Hide

      Or the question is nonsense, and we’re just not up to the task of clearly establishing it’s nonsense.
      Or we don’t have enough data to come to a conclusion.
      Certainly lots of possibilities. And lots of people pretending they know when we’re about as far from that as could be…

      1. Ronald Olzheim Avatar
        Ronald Olzheim
        Hide

        Why is There Something Instead of Nothing?

        If the context is wrong but the container is there you still experience a conversation right?
        Something to me can me nothing to you.

        How we measure is also a big thing but more important why?

        Something of your bank account is nothing on my bank account.
        Nothing of my money is on your bank account.
        Everything of our money is in a bank account.

        My points about colour are meant to represent a variable which we all see as true. You could call them x and y.

        ´but that has no logical connection to the concept of nothingness, there is no such a thing as “partially not existing”, existence is a strict binary, things exist, or they do not, there is no middle point there where something has partial existence.´

        Life is not binary because we all life and die. life itself is made of choices which are binary. i don´t think people make only rational choices when we are in love. Maybe that´s the reason of the heart. To guide you in case you get lost on the rational path.

        ¨in the end, my path lays to you´

        that would make the feeling aspect more rational but not proven.
        difficult.

        (i´m just reminicing some thoughts feel free to add on)

        1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
          Hide

          This made so little sense I am completely unable to say if this was written by a human or by one of those Deep Learning AI systems that generate text that sounds “somewhat” like what humans would write…

        2. Wolf Avatar
          Wolf
          Hide

          Please read this comment again and imagine who on earth could understand what it is trying to say other than you

  13. Frank Avatar
    Frank
    Hide

    I think the question has a flawed assumption. Why “instead”?
    Nothing = no thing = absence of something. The lack of something can be considered a “state” in itself, when compared to an opposite state of a presence of thing(s), therefore nothing is something (a state, a concept, a void, etc.)

    I’m not sure how to define “something”, other than in relation to nothing. Therefore, both exist in order to recognize the other for what it is. I think this duality (or more generally multiple opposing forces) exists everywhere. For example, a similar question to yours could be “Why is there light instead of dark?” Then I’d respond with: What is light? What is dark? Similarly what is good or evil?

    So something and nothing both exist at the same time. Maybe not in the same space, or at the same level / dimension you are looking. But as you zoom in and out, you might alternately see something or nothing.

    Hope that helps 😀

    1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
      Hide

      Therefore, nothing is something

      That’s literally violating the very definition of the concept. Working with that assumption makes anything that follows completely worthless, as you’re not actually talking about nothing, but something else.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomy

      both exist in order to recognize the other for what it is

      Just because you can give a name to something, does not mean it therefore exists. This is a common mistake, but one does not follow the other. Just because you can or need to name a concept, does not necessarily imply existence.

      What you are saying might be true in lots of cases, but here this is *clearly* an exception, as “nothing” is *by definition* non-existence.

      Just because the concept of “nothing” exists, does not mean “nothing” itself exists. The same way just because the concept of Santa exists, does not mean Santa himself exists.

      I think the bottom of this is that you might be confused about the very principle of what either existence or reality is.

      Maybe not in the same space, or at the same level / dimension you are looking.

      Now that’s sounding very suspiciously like woo…

      For example, a similar question to yours could be “Why is there light instead of dark?”

      That’s not similar *at all*. There is light where there are photons. Done. There is dark where photons are not present. Done.

      This carries none of the issues the concept of “nothing” has, and therefore is pretty much irrelevant to the question at hand.

      Then I’d respond with: What is light? What is dark?

      And if you did that, you’d demonstrate you have much more interest in clever-sounding non-sense than in actually having a rational conversation that progresses understanding forward.

      1. Frank Avatar
        Frank
        Hide

        I appreciate the reply Arthur, but I still stand by my attempt at an answer. Language is a limited form of communication. Words are insufficient tools to express all thoughts and ideas, especially when it comes to such abstract concepts.

        I felt Tim himself approached this paradox in his paragraph beginning with “Nothing is truly a crazy concept”.

        You said yourself “nothing is the absence of something” and “”nothing” is *by definition* non-existence”, and we agree since I said that myself. So now how would you answer the original question? Why does anything exist? What does it mean to exist or not exist?

        That’s not similar *at all*. There is light where there are photons. Done. There is dark where photons are not present. Done.

        That was not what I asked. My analogy was WHY is there light instead of dark? So why are there photons? And then why are there also no photons? Why aren’t there always photons, everywhere? Or no photons at all, anywhere? Why is there BOTH the concept of light and dark in the universe?

        1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
          Hide

          So now how would you answer the original question? Why does anything exist?

          There is no reason to think the question is meaningful / makes sense. So no answering.

          If you want to know the why of anything, you’re going to follow a chain of causality all the way down to the origin of the Universe. When you do that all the way to the original singularity, you get to the beginning of time. But there is no “before” time, the same way there is no “outside” space. The question just doesn’t make sense. So it doesn’t make sense to ask it, and it doesn’t make sense to attempt to answer it.

          Does that help?

          What does it mean to exist or not exist?

          That’s definitional. Existing means having substance in the Universe: you exist (because your brain is part of the physical Universe), Santa doesn’t exist (because as a concept/story, it doesn’t have substance in the physical Universe).

          That was not what I asked. My analogy was WHY is there light instead of dark? So why are there photons?

          There are photons because stars emit them (for most of them). Stars emit them because of thermonuclear fusion. That fusion happens because the stars were formed a while ago. The stars were formed because the atoms that constitute them formed during the Quark epoch of the Big Bang. The Quark epoch occurred because the Universe cooled as it expanded, and the energy that constituted it cooled *into* Quarks/matter. That energy was there in the first place because that’s what the Universe’s original singularity was made out of.

          As for why that singularity was present, we do not know if the question of a “why” makes any sense for that thing. It might very well be the only thing we know of for which that question does not make sense. The reason for this, is that causality requires time, but we do not know if there was any time *before* the singularity/origin of the Universe, or if the notion of time even makes any sense as you try to go further back than that point.

          Either that, or something-something-string-theory 🙂 But that’s not established science at this point.

          See the Wikipedia page “Chronology of the Universe”.

          And then why are there also no
          photons? Why aren’t there always photons, everywhere?

          That’s easy. Because that would require having photon emitters (stars) everywhere, and that’s not the way the Universe formed/evolved. There was actually a point in the history of the Universe at which the cosmos was mostly made of photons everywhere. But the Universe has since expanded, leaving lots of empty space between them.

          Or no photons at all, anywhere?

          Well no, there are stars, they emit photons, that would make it difficult to have no photons then…

          Why is there BOTH the concept of light and dark in the
          universe?

          If you mean why is there both light and dark (ignoring “concepts”), that is because stars emit photons, so there is light, but they do not emit enough that there is no dark anywhere (anymore).

          If you ask why is there *the concept* of light and dark, that would be because there are human brains, and I feel that is a tangent/different topic to what we are discussing here.

          1. Frank Avatar
            Frank
            Hide

            This is a good reply, even though I don’t agree with it all. Thanks.

            But I’m sure Tim and the readers and commenters aren’t deluding themselves thinking there is a definitive answer to the original question or similar questions like “why does anything exist?”, “why was there the singularity?” etc.

            It’s just one of those contemplative questions like “why I am here?” and we’re all trying to come up with speculative answers for fun to pass the time 🙂 So I don’t think people can be prevented from asking these questions or trying to answer them. When we hear or read one of these questions, we can either try to contribute our own answer or move along.

      2. Frank Avatar
        Frank
        Hide

        Just because the concept of “nothing” exists, does not mean “nothing” itself exists. The same way just because the concept of Santa exists, does not mean Santa himself exists.

        Well, to me yes it does. Defining existence or reality is a separate, more complicated discussion. But what’s the difference between “the concept of Santa exists” and “Santa himself exists”? How do I understand what you are talking about when you write Santa? Not only that, but I bet we can visualize the same thing. Doesn’t that mean Santa exists, even if only in our collective imagination?

        So maybe Santa exists, but Santa is not real? But what makes Santa real? I’ve seen illustrations of Santa in books. I’ve seen Santa in movies and ads on a screen. I’ve seen (someone dressed up as) Santa in-person in real life in front of my eyes.

        So I don’t know if I can rationally and convincingly say Santa does not exist or is not real. I don’t believe the myth / story, so maybe it would actually be more correct to say instead “the concept of Santa” does not exist? Now I’m confused about this too 🙂

        1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
          Hide

          Doesn’t that mean Santa exists, even if only in our collective imagination?

          No, it doesn’t. Existence means you have physical form. Santa doesn’t have physical form.

          So maybe Santa exists, but Santa is not real?

          Santa doesn’t exist, he doesn’t have physical form, he is not part of physical reality, the way you and I do.

          Either I am making a grown adult very sad about something he should have learned about a long time ago, OR you have a huge issue with misunderstanding the definition of words like existence and “real”.

          But what makes Santa real? I’ve seen illustrations of Santa in books.
          I’ve seen Santa in movies and ads on a screen. I’ve seen (someone
          dressed up as) Santa in-person in real life in front of my eyes.

          That doesn’t make him real, or make him exist. That doesn’t make him part of the physical world. That doesn’t make him constituted of atoms.

          So I don’t know if I can rationally and convincingly say Santa does not
          exist or is not real.

          Sure you can. Is Santa made of atoms? No? Santa doesn’t exist. This is trivial…

          I don’t believe the myth / story, so maybe it
          would actually be more correct to say instead “the concept of Santa” does not exist?

          The concept of Santa exists, that’s how we are talking about it. Santa doesn’t exist, because he’s not part of the physical world.

          This is really not that difficult, you just seem to have issues with the definitions of a few core concepts, and those issues would be very easily solved by spending a few intimate minutes with a dictionary…

          1. Frank Avatar
            Frank
            Hide

            Sorry, that didn’t convince me. For the record, you brought up about the concept of Santa existing analogy and I found it interesting and gave me pause. So I’m just continuing the conversation 🙂

            1. I assume you know that dictionaries are a human creation, and definitions evolve over time and have different interpretations. If you actually look up various definitions of “exist / existence” and “real / reality” you will find that it isn’t as simple as you’re trying to make it appear.

            That doesn’t make him real, or make him exist. That doesn’t make him part of the physical world. That doesn’t make him constituted of atoms.
            2. At what point is “him” / Santa “part of the physical world” ? The book is made of atoms and the illustrations have physical form. The TV screen is made of atoms and has physical form, and the moving images are processed and transmitted through film and light waves etc. Even if you still reject the above for some reason, surely the person in real life is made of atoms and has physical form.

            The concept of Santa exists, that’s how we are talking about it. Santa doesn’t exist, because he’s not part of the physical world.
            3. “The concept of Santa” does NOT exist by your own definition “Existence means physical form” or “constituted of atoms”

            This is really not that difficult, you just seem to have issues with the definitions of a few core concepts, and those issues would be very easily solved by spending a few intimate minutes with a dictionary…

            I find this hypocritical given your accusation that I might “demonstrate you have much more interest in clever-sounding non-sense than in actually having a rational conversation that progresses understanding forward.”

            Do you actually believe existence and objective reality are core concepts that are not difficult?

            1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              Let me try again.

              The definitions thing is a red herring I’ll just ignore that.

              You thing about TV screens and light waves is also a red herring: all those things exist, they have nothing to do with concepts/ideas/notions, such as santa.

              Santa *does not* exist, but the *concept* of santa is an emerging property of the functionning of brain. That is, it is a set of brain states. Brains exist and are made of atoms. Santa doesn’t exist, and if we said he did, *anything* a brain can produce would exist, and that’s just non-sense/taking any meaning away from existence as a concept.

              I insist this isn’t difficult, the only people I meet who have issues with these ideas are creationists/anti-vaxx/crazy people. Other people understand, things that exist are part of the physical universe, concepts don’t exist, they are emerging properties.

            2. Wade Jean-Louis Avatar
              Wade Jean-Louis
              Hide

              I’d argue that the concept of those unique brain shapes does make up a unique thing, making it something.

            3. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              « brain shapes » ?

              I don’t think you mean the actual shape of actual physical brains.

              Are you trying to say “neural patterns”? That is, the specific set of neuron connections in a brain that creates/stores a specific idea?

              If that’s what you are trying to say, then what you are saying, is the same as saying a postcard of Santa-Claus is Santa-Claus, or a JPEG of the Rock is the Rock…

              Information about something / representing something, is not that thing. Just because you have an informational representation of something, does not mean that thing actually exists.

              Otherwise, Hogwarts would exist, because books about it exist.

  14. Rob Richardson Avatar
    Rob Richardson
    Hide

    Nothing is unstable

    1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
      Hide

      How do you know that? Have you ever had a “nothing” to examine? How could you possibly acquire any data about this? Sincerely curious, it seems pretty obvious that there’s an issue here, where the scientific method requires *something* to work on, and that makes “nothing” difficult/impossible to use the scientific method on, and therefore difficult/impossible to know things about. Including whether it’s unstable or not.

  15. MMoist Avatar
    MMoist
    Hide

    We will never know, it’s impossible to know. Frightening yet incredible once you consider the infinate possibilities.

    1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
      Hide

      Never say never. We don’t know what the future holds.

      The history of science is full of things that were thought to be impossible to observe/know, and for which clever methods, such as indirect observation/deduction were used to gain more insight than was thought possible.

      There might be clues about the origin of the universe/reality that we are not yet aware of, and that will become apparent after further research. We just don’t know right now if there will be such things or not.

      And so it seems very premature to say “we’ll never know”, when we’re so early in the process of looking for said knowledge.

  16. Jm Avatar
    Jm
    Hide

    Instead of nothing and something use death and life.

    1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
      Hide

      What does that get us though? These are very different concepts.

      Death is the absence of life, nothing is the absence of something, but that’s about how far you’re going to get with that analogy.

      The issues with the concept of “nothing”, as described here, do not apply to the concept of death… Therefore this is not really helping much.

  17. Bart Avatar
    Bart
    Hide

    Let us first analyse the question before trying to answer it.

    First of all the question assumes there could exist nothing the same way as there exists something – a notion that stands equally for everything, at least in the context of this question. I am not sure if “nothing” is an invention of the human mind and if it is always referred to in some context. As in “there is nothing to eat”, “there is nothing I can think of…”, “nothing in the world can …”. These kinds of nothing are obviously not really the nothing we are thinking of as alternative for the “something” that currently exists obviously.
    The nothing we refer to here is quite unimaginary for me. Moreover as this nothing must not be looked upon as a “nothingness”, as this would be an entity. Also “nothing” is not to be interpreted as a property, because this property would need a context, being an entity.
    So what is nothing? I must say that “everything” is equaly unimaginary. I don’t know what everything is. In set theory we can define the universe as a set consisting of every set that could exist within the defined context. But this Universe is a set of everything and is in fact not everything itself. So in fact in set theory we don’t have a definition of everything; instead we have a definition of the set Universe using the notion “everything”.
    In set theory we cabn also define an empty set, which is not the same as nothing, but wthat contains nothing. Also here “nothing” is not defined, but used as notion to define the empty set.
    Therefor to me “nothing” and “everything” could be the same. And if we assume this, then the question makes no sense. “Nothing” and “everything” exist equally. But, this looks very much as an escape of me to flee from answering the question. I should be able to handle the question even when I am not capable to imagine the real meaning of nothing and everything.

    Secondly there is the question “why”. I am not sure what is meant by this simple word.
    For me “why” is a question for “the reason”. Now this is quite interesting, because when we ask for a reason, we assume there is something that gives this reason. But that would necessarily mean there is context. Maybe an initiator or maybe merely an observer or maybe none of these kinds of something but something that gives a reason. That would be an entity. In that case an assumed nothing would live in the context of something giving a reason, meaning there is not nothing. I love this kind of contradictions, which by the way are rather common in formal logic and set theory.
    Or maybe “why” must be interpreted as question for the purpose. A purpose could be assigned to the object itself, without the need of a context giving the purpose. (could that be the case with a reason as well?)
    Now for “something” it is possible to have a purpose, but this is not possible for “nothing”, because the nothing we talk about should not have any properties and therefor also no purpose. But if “nothing” can not have a purpose, the question is meaningless.
    As I said: I love it.
    Or must “why” be looked upon as “what is the cause”? Well there is obviously no valid answer to this question because something would be needed to give the cause, which means there is never nothing and always something.

    Well for now I come to the conclusion that the question is very interesting – I really think so! – but it has no answer and every answer that would be given would not be valid for at least the notion “nothing”. This does not mean that the question is not valid; merely it seems that there is no valid answer to the question. This fact is perfectly acceptable and is also a well known behaviour in formal logic and set theory.

    Now all this does not mean that it would not be possible for “nothing” to exist as alternative choice for something – assumed they are not the same. Reasoning about the circumstances in which the choice is made or the choice has happend could never lead to a valid thought.
    This means, that given the fact that there is something nothing is not a thinkable or reasonable alternative. On the other hand if there were nothing, it would not be thinkable that there was something, because nothing has no capabilities, let go it could produced a thought.
    This again is a wonderfull contradiction: “nothing” and “something” are two possible choices, but given one of these choices is actual, the otherone is not a reasonable possible choice.
    Does this sound a bit like Schrödinger`s cat, only now we live in the box?

    1. william matthews Avatar
      william matthews
      Hide

      You gave it one hell of a try: thanks but no thanks!

      1. Bart Avatar
        Bart
        Hide

        Do you also have any substantive comments?
        thx

        1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
          Hide

          I wouldn’t hold my breath, if creationists could present anything but vitriol, excuses and fallacies, it’d be big news, we’d all know about it immediately. « Breaking! Creationist says something that’s relevant to the conversation! »

          1. Bart Avatar
            Bart
            Hide

            Do you also have any substantive comments?
            thx

            1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              Sure, if you want one I can give you one. Nothing in your plank of text, bears any connection to evidence or reality. It’s all just abstract thinking without any connection to the real. You can reason all day long thinking about abstract things, if it doesn’t actually have any bearing on what exists, it’s mental masturbation.

              If the answer to why the universe exists is based on set theory, I’ll eat an entire billiard table.

            2. Bart Avatar
              Bart
              Hide

              I wish you a good apetite then 🙂

            3. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              Now who has no substance? Your initial comment didn’t have any substance either really, which was my point, which you completely missed.

              To make more of a precise complaint: there is no logical argument that’s this long, and this type of talking for so long without rooting what you are saying in fact, is the hallmark of mental masturbation.

              If you actually can extract a reasonable logical argument from all this, you’ve done a terrible job pointing out what it is, but here’s your opportunity to shorten this down and give us the essence of what you were trying to demonstrate, as a short-form, step by step syllogistic argument:

            4. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              4 months, still no substance, just jabs and complaints, but no evidence, no actual arguments. Just pretending you have a foot to stand on, and never showing anything that would prove you do. Typical.

          2. william matthews Avatar
            william matthews
            Hide

            I ain’t no “creationist” and no reasonable would conclude that from my simple statement.

            1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              I was initially talking to you, about william matthews, sharing your complaint about a creationist ( which you clearly missed, probably out of an excess of testosterone or something ). But then I read what you wrote, and it’s complete nonsense, creationist or not, so I’m now also complaining about that.

              I didn’t have to know more about william than he had made a pointless answer to know he was a creationist. I presumed he was answering a valid comment as that’s what they most of the time answer, but here it happens he wasn’t, and the comment he was answering was in fact useless.

            2. Bart Avatar
              Bart
              Hide

              sharing your complaint
              I do not have a complaint about William Mathews. I do have a complaint about you: I think your comments to me and to William Matthews are impolite.

            3. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              « Do you also have any substantive comments? » Isn’t a complaint? What are you on about? WHATEVER you call what you answered william, I was sharing that sentiment, of complaining he was not substantive. You follow yet?

              Also, I have no idea why you say my comments are impolite, and I’m not criticizing you, but your ideas, you’re clearly taking this much too personally. I really don’t care about you … at all … just about the ideas you present.

        2. william matthews Avatar
          william matthews
          Hide

          Not really and NO one commenting here knows any more about this than I do….Like everyone else, I am searching….But am far from confident I’ll ever find a satisfactory answer. Thanks, also.

          1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
            Hide

            I want to apologize, I initially mocked your comment because it’s not making an attempt at explaining why you’re rejecting it, which I just presumed was the usual creationist dishonesty, where when they don’t know how to answer something, just lash out with pointless answers like this.

            While I still think it’s not really great to answer without pointing out anything, I’ve since read Bart’s comment that you were answering, and it’s utter non-sense, a complete logical failure (for reasons pointed out bellow in other comments), so I get a better idea why you’d answer like this.

            I also agree nobody here knows where the universe comes from ( beyond the Big Bang ), and why it exists ( if that makes any sense at all ), and those pretending they do, as far as I’ve been able to tell from their arguments, are all full of crap.

            1. Glen Steen Avatar
              Glen Steen
              Hide

              Here’s a plausible answer. No deity required!????????
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwzbU0bGOdc
              Check out Amazon books. You can get a book by the same name.

            2. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              Krauss’ stuff is interresting, but:
              1. He abuses the term “nothing”, he doesn’t really mean what readers would expect him to mean by that
              2. Lots of his stuff is tenuous/not yet properly supported by experimentation/evidence.

              It’s interresting ideas, that might turn out later on to be true, it’s a *possible* view of the origin of the universe, but it’s not really more “from nothing” than plenty of other cosmogenies.

              The book is more noted for how he’s good at making this non-boring, than for anything truly exceptional he expresses/shows was discovered…

            3. Glen Steen Avatar
              Glen Steen
              Hide

              The readers would expect the void of space to be ‘nothing’ but instead it has energy. If the quantum particles popping in & out of reality happen to hit on the correct physics a universe like ours could be created as Krauss has shown. As for multi-verses, my opinion is the correct physics is a very rare event & our universe will be nonexistent by the time the next universe could be created. I’m not a physicist, a mere undergraduate degree in Biology. I was able to grasp what Krauss was saying. In his presentations he is very good at making complicated physics easy for me to understand. As Einstein said “If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t know it well enough.”
              @LKrauss1 knows it well enough. There are detractors as there are for any new scientific hypothesis. Don’t know if this is a hypothesis but it could be. I don’t know enough physics to understand their arguments. For me as Krauss said this is a plausible explanation of the creation of the universe, no deity required.

            4. Bali Bar Avatar
              Bali Bar
              Hide

              If it has “energy” then it is not nothing and is changing (and avoiding) the pure question. It is not just the “void of space” but the concept of saying not even space should exist. Pure nothing. No space. No time. Nothing. Just, nothing.

    2. Carlos Duran Avatar
      Carlos Duran
      Hide

      I just want to say that this is too much for my my square brain.

    3. Bali Bar Avatar
      Bali Bar
      Hide

      You lost me at “…assumes there could exist nothing the same way as there exists something.” To me that is the point of the question. “Nothing” is in direct opposition to “exists”; they cannot conceptually support each other as you deployed them. You basically asked the “Can God create a round square?” linguistic judo. I know, we can’t really conceptualise “nothing” but as a place holder for the absence of absolutely everything or, at least, something, it is still functional. For all intents and purposes, there should (I think) be the absence of “something”, otherwise known as “nothing”. But experientially we can see there is indeed something. What that something is is highly debatable: the crazy dreams of a god with indigestion, a sophisticated simulated environment, or the only reality available. But we can undermine the question by negating the concept of pure nothingness. (In your examples, “nothing” was code for “less than significant” or “less than desired” or “not enough”. But we still can conceive of true nothing. And that is what should be. But it’s not. So the question remains: Why is there something instead of nothing?”

      1. Bart Avatar
        Bart
        Hide

        Thank you Bali. I tend to agree with you in . And I like your notion of . For me that notion indicates that we cannot claim “nothing” to exist. Then, I think, the Why-question is pointless?
        And if we assume that “nothing” can exist, to give the Why-question a starting point, the Why-question turns out to be unreasonable.

  18. Meritarchy Avatar
    Meritarchy
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    Very simple. God created the universe. We cannot understand God because we have a finite mind. As plausible as any scientific theory but at least internally consistent.

    1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
      Hide

      > As plausible as any scientific theory

      Except not, because there’s no evidence for it, while the current scientific models are backed up by plenty of evidence, experimental verification, falsifiability etc. Your God hypothesis has *none* of that.

      You just gave the most obvious example possible of a false equivalency fallacy…

      And being internally consistent doesn’t make something true: plenty of false things are internally consistent ( like say, the Harry Potter universe … ).

      How about you present *any* kind of valid evidence for your God before you start accepting him as real?

      1. Glen Steen Avatar
        Glen Steen
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        Well said!.

      2. Chris Simmons Avatar
        Chris Simmons
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        Man got an answer for everything lol

        1. Chris Simmons Avatar
          Chris Simmons
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          I see you typing again lol

          1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
            Hide

            I’ve seen you typing immediately after posting a comment a dozen times today, how is that in any way remarkable or telling you anything about me ( or you when you do it ? ).
            How about you stop obsessing about how and when I post comments, or edits, or typos, like you’ve been all evening, and instead start worrying about the actual facts and evidence you’ve been avoiding and finding excuses to hide from for hours now?

            I know this is exciting to you if this is your first day, but they’re called comments, and they’re really not very exciting at all. They are very cheap, they are typically typed very fast, and clearly yours aren’t that good. You should concentrate on saying things that are more true instead of concentrating on what I do with my keyboard.

        2. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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          Yes, I’ve posted 101 comments to you today. You’ve posted 100 to me. That means I’ve got an answer for everything, but it means nothing about you. You think good.

          1. Chris Simmons Avatar
            Chris Simmons
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            Have a great rest of the day

            1. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
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              You have not proved a thing ….neither have I

            2. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
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              So just stop as I am leaving now

            3. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              You have not proved a thing ….neither have I

              Just because you don’t listen to an argument or to evidence, doesn’t mean it’s not there. Just because you don’t accept a clearly valid argument, doesn’t mean it’s not valid. The force of your stubborness doesn’t magically make evidence dissapear.

              You have *tried* to prove some things, and have failed every time, and that’s not made better just because you convinced yourself I was as wrong as you ( which I wasn’t ).

              I have in fact proven you were incorrect on the Pasteur/Abiogenesis stuff. Pasteur does not say what you say he said ( you said he said life can only come from life, and that is not what he proved, you can go look at his experiment right now, anyone can, and he only proved that life can not come from sterilized glass ). You used this incorrect view of the Pasteur experiments to try to discount Abiogenesis, not realizing that abiogenesis does not posit life from nothing, but life from primordial chemicals. And Pasteur said nothing about life from primordial chemicals, therefore he said nothing about abiogenesis. This is all verifiably true, and it’s a solid valid argument showing you were incorrect.

              Putting your head in the sand like an ostrich doesn’t magically make this evidence and this argument wrong, you have done nothing to prove this is wrong. You can’t really, this is rock-solid, and anyone with basic science knowledge reading this, would immediately see you messed up.

              But I’m sure like the four other times I’ve presented this argument, you’ll just glance over it not even attempting to understanding, showing everybody exactly how much you care about what is true and what is not.

            4. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
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              Can you ever say anything nice or do you like to just degrade ?

            5. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
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              Nothing is stubborn about me I could easily say that about you as well

            6. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              You are stubbornly refusing to adress the actual evidence and the actual argument that I am presenting. There are tons of messages that demonstrate this. What am I stubborn about? I’m clearly stubborn about giving you chances to understand your mistake, but appart from that, i don’t see much. Also, it doesn’t matter who is stubborn, what matters is the evidence and the argument, and you are once more trying to find *anything* to talk about that is not the evidence, because the evidence is the one thing you don’t know what to say about.

            7. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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              Man we’re passed this point, we were nice for the first 20 comments, but you’ve been an ass to me for the other 60, so at this point you complaining about me “degrading” you is just plain BS. Pointing out you’re wrong isn’t degrading you by the way. You’re just trying to talk about ANYTHING but the evidence. I guess talking about how mean I am works if that’s your objective. Anyone reading this that’s older than 5 can realize you’re just AGAIN trying to avoid the evidence and trying to avoid THINKING about this argument. It’s pretty clear at this point you don’t care if any of this is true, which makes it even more annoying you had me explain it to you like 5 times now.

            8. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
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              Bro you want us to believe you proved Louis pasteur wrong ? Lol sleep well

            9. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
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              You have not proved anything but your own ignorance

            10. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              Bro you want us to believe you proved Louis pasteur wrong ? Lol sleep well

              Only an idiot would think that is what I was attempting to do ( or a dishonest man knowingly misrepresenting my argument ). Of course, what I was saying isn’t that Pasteur is wrong, but that you are wrong about what Pasteur did. You claim Pasteur disproved Abiogenesis, when he absolutely didn’t. Pasteur’s experiments are about whether modern life can come from sterile glass, while abiogenesis is about primordial complex chemicals assembling into the first life-life processes. These two things have nothing to do with each other, and the fact that you think the first one disproves the second, is ignorant and wrong to the extreme. But sure, keep poking stupid irrelevant arguments like “oh you think you proved pasteur wrong” and keep completely ignoring the actual arguments I’ve made, you’re only making it more obvious to everyone how dishonest you are and how little you care about the truth.

            11. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
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              My apologies for any comments that made you upset but this topic by its nature creates waves on both sides ….but I apologize if I have disrespected you I get defensive about my beliefs as you do ….

            12. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
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              And I wish you well

            13. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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              F-you man. You can play this “oh I’m sorry I was so mean” card ONCE, but it’s now the third time you swivel from mean to apologetic, so it’s clear this is not sincere or there is something seriously wrong with your brain. How about you stop caring about who is upset, and instead you start FOR ONCE actually adressing the evidence, instead of dodging it like you’ve been doing for ages.

            14. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              It’s night here.

              Have a great rest of your ignorance about science… I guess. You seem to enjoy it.

            15. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
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              Sorry have a great night lol

          2. Chris Simmons Avatar
            Chris Simmons
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            You’re a competitor I can tell I like that

        3. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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          Man got an answer for everything lol

          This is not difficult stuff. If I could not answer this, I would feel pretty bad about myself.

          Are you seriously impressed by how many answers I have? You shouldn’t be. This is very basic stuff. You should look into the things I’m talking about, and learn things about them so that you too can have answers for more things. I think that’d be the smart thing to do here.

      3. Meritarchy Avatar
        Meritarchy
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        God hypothesis is 100% falsifiable the minute you prove there is a scientific explanation for existence, thereby destroying the current need to separate physics and metaphysics. Until then it is faith in science vs faith in religion, when used in the metaphysical world both are faiths and both are plausible.

        There is no false equivalency as i did not imply anywhere that science is equivalent to faith. In fact science is a perfect method to understand the physical world by empirical evidence but it can become a dangerous illusion if it is applied in metaphysics as it is not suited for that field.
        This is because its all value is based on physical counterproofs which are by definition not available in metaphysics. And why reality exist is a metaphysical question not a physical question. It is actually a false equivalency from your side to put science in the same field of philosophy or religion as a reliable tool for metaphysical investigation. This is also why “science will find an explanation for existence” is not an internally consistent claim, unless we first explain why science should be a reliable tool to investigate metaphysical questions.

        Lastly i dont think scientific proofs is where we should look to find answers to metaphysical questions. We are still far away from reaching conclusive evidence on the mechanics of the big bang, leaving aside the real question of why at all that set of physical laws was there in the first place, which is the ultimate point of this article.

        1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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          Science concerns itself with what exists. If something doesn’t exist, I expect most people around here in this conversation would not care about it. Things that are in the metaphysical world do not exist in the physical world ( they at least do not necessarily exist ). You have to be careful when making arguments here, to not make irrelevant arguments about metaphysical concepts ( which do not matter when talking about things that exist ), and to not confuse your arguments about things that do not exist in reality, with arguments about things that do. It seems most of your position here is based on confusing the physical with the metaphysical to argue that things that you can prove are concepts, therefore magically become physical thanks to that proof. Just because you can talk about something as a concept and prove that concept exists, does not magically mean that thing then exists in the real world. We are here talking about science and about what exists, not about what you can imagine/conceptualize, so talking about metaphysics shouldn’t really matter much, yet as we are going to see, you are about to talk about nearly nothing else:

          God hypothesis is 100% falsifiable

          That’s completely going to depend on your God definition. Most Christians I’ve talked to ( Muslims even more actually ) were very clear that their God is in no way falsifiable, and that nothing we could discover could ever disprove them. At best if you proved their God is not responsible for something they thought he was responsible for, they’d answer «well, we learned something about our God, but we don’t believe in him less».

          Most supernatural claims are not falsifiable, if you have a God definition that is falsifiable, that’s definitely an unusual and odd thing, I have only met people with this sort of definition very very rarely.

          the minute you prove there is a
          scientific explanation for existence, thereby destroying the current
          need to separate physics and metaphysics.

          You’re assuming existence needs to be explained ( you also really need to explain more precisely what you mean by “an explanation for existence” ), you’re assuming existence has an explanation. It might not. Science would be perfectly fine with the null hypothesis here, which would be that there is no explanation required for existence. The Cosmos ( this universe and whatever else it is included is, that is the ensemble of everything that exists in any way ) does not need a reason for it’s existence, and it doesn’t need it’s existence to be explained by either a creator, or a cause.

          If we proved that the universe has a non-God cause, that would not disprove God, a non-God-caused universe could still contain a God.

          Until then it is faith in
          science vs faith in religion

          Nope, that is completely incorrect. First off, there is no faith in science, at all. Faith is “belief in the absence of evidence”, and Science is about the absolute opposite of that ( that is, Science is about belief *only* in the presence of evidence ). So Religion for sure has Faith ( that is people believe in religion despite not having evidence for their religion ), but the things people believe in when science is concerned, they only believe STRICTLY when there is evidence for them, and NEVER otherwise.

          You are making a false equivalence fallacy, and a very poor one at that.

          , when used in the metaphysical world both
          are faiths and both are plausible.

          That is fully incorrect.

          Just because this concerns the metaphysical world, does not change how science works, and science does not use/contain/tolerate faith. Science is indeed not applicable to metaphysics ( it’s pretty much philosophy ), but that does not magically change what Science *is*, and science *is not* faith-base. Religion is (often) faith-based, no matter if metaphysics is involved or not.

          People who believe in God believe despite having no evidence for their God’s existence.

          People who do not believe in God, lack this belief in God ( which is *very* different from “believing God does not exists” ) because of the lack of evidence for God.

          What you are saying would be true if the opposition was “people who believe God exists versus people who believe God does not exist”, but this is ABSOLUTELY not what the opposition is here. The opposition is in fact “people who believe God exists versus people who do not believe the claims that God exists”.

          Misrepresenting this dichotomy is something Christians do *incredibly often*, but it’s definitely wrong, and it’s definitely a bad argument for their God or against the rejection of a belief in their God.

          There is no false equivalency
          as i did not imply anywhere that science is equivalent to faith.

          You did make a false equivalency when misrepresenting Atheism in your comparison ( you didn’t use the words, but it was exactly that ) of Theism versus Atheism ( which you misrepresented as Anti-Theism, when that is not what it is ).

          Let me quote you again: « when used in the metaphysical world both
          are faiths and both are plausible. »

          So you did say that science is equivalent/using/related to faith in the context of metaphysics ( which is false, even though it doesn’t matter much considering how little science and metaphysics concern each other. doesn’t change the definition of science by magic just because it doesn’t apply there ).

          In fact
          science is a perfect method to understand the physical world by
          empirical evidence but it can become a dangerous illusion if it is
          applied in metaphysics as it is not suited for that field.

          If you are claiming God exists, that is not a metaphysics claim, that is in fact a scientific claim. Existence requires interracting with the physical world ( if your god never interracted with the physical world, people would care about him as much as they care about Harry Potter ). And as your God interacts with the physical world, he is not a metaphysic object, and Science can study him and make conclusions about him.

          This is not a “dangerous illusion”, this is a basic and simple usage of the scientific method.

          This is
          because its all value is based on physical counterproofs which are by
          definition not available in metaphysics.

          Metaphysics doesn’t matter here.

          This is easy:
          Question: Does it relate to physical reality?
          If the answer is yes, then we should talk about Science, and metaphysics has little or nothing to do with it.
          If the answer is no, then it might have to do with metaphysics, and it’s unlikely Science can be used to study it, or that science cares about it at all.

          You seem to have a very hard time with this fork in the process of deciding which tool to use in what situation here …

          And why reality exist is a
          metaphysical question not a physical question.

          Is it though? Pretty sure people here are discussing this in the context of Big Bang cosmology, which has nothing to do with metaphysics, *at all*. In fact Big Bang cosmology is pretty much the poster-boy for (NON-META)physics.

          It’s also not relevant to the question at hand until it is proven that it is relevant to the question at hand, which has not been achieved.

          It is actually a false
          equivalency from your side to put science in the same field of
          philosophy or religion as a reliable tool for metaphysical
          investigation.

          This is not what I have done or claimed. I have not claimed Science has an answer to the question of the reason for existence, I do not even accept we know that such a reason exists in the first place. This is unless by “existence” you mean “the Big Bang”, in which case yes, I do believe Science can help us discover things about the Big Bang, but that’s really not metaphysics at all then.

          If somebody claims that their god exists, that is also not metaphysics, and it’s something Science can talk about.

          In the same way, Big Bang cosmology is not metaphysics.

          This is also why “science will find an explanation for
          existence” is not an internally consistent claim, unless we first
          explain why science should be a reliable tool to investigate
          metaphysical questions.

          “science will find an explanation for existence” isn’t what I or anybody else around here has said, so I think you’re just talking besides the point here.

          “why is there something instead of nothing” isn’t about a metaphysical explanation for existence ( at least the way it is most commonly meant ), it’s a question about how existence ( the cosmos ) came into being, which is a scientific question ( questions about existence are questions about things that we in fact can test for ), even if at the moment we don’t have tools to answer the question in a satisfactory fashion.

          Lastly i dont think scientific proofs is
          where we should look to find answers to metaphysical questions.

          That’s not what most people I talk about this question with try to do. This is about Big Bang cosmology not metaphysics.

          But you also have an odd definition of God compared to what I normally encounter, so I’m not surprised you’d differ here too. Maybe you’ll have an interesting perspective to present here.

          Metaphysics, if you look at it’s definition, is pretty much about the nature of reality, which doesn’t make it a good tool to study things like Big Bang cosmology. In fact metaphysics can be studies completely independently of any connection to the physical world, which supports this point further.

          We are
          still far away from reaching conclusive evidence on the mechanics of the
          big bang,

          I think you’ve spent too much time in metaphysics and have not followed the current state of Big Bang cosmology and the related quantum-related discoveries. We know *a lot* about the mechanics of the Big Bang, and at this point we pretty much have *montains* of evidence for those mechanisms. Do you think we spend this many billions on all those crazy advanced telescope for no reason, or just to look at the moon ???

          I had the chance a few years back to have a private visit of the LHC, and I promise you they were way too excited about what it taught them about the Big Bang for science to be “far away from reaching conclusive evidence on the mechanics of the Big Bang”. In fact they just couldn’t STOP talking about all their conclusive evidence, they spent hours on it, explaining as we strolled from buildings and sensors to experiments and technical tools.

          And lately, as the number of educated people worldwide explodes, the number of scientists is not only increasing, but that increase in accelerating, and with it, discoveries are becoming much more frequent and much more impressive year after year. This is true for Big Bang cosmology as much as for many other fields of science. It is too late nowadays to repeat this old lie about what we don’t know, it’s just no longer valid. Two decades ago the evidence was definitely there but was sparser and less easy to explain. Today we just have so much of it it’s just laughable to say what you just said, sorry.

          leaving aside the real question of why at all that set of
          physical laws was there in the first place, which is the ultimate point
          of this article.

          Yes, and it is not a metaphysical question. It’s a physics question. And it’s “laws of physics”, not “physical laws”, and that slip by you underlines pretty well where you are going wrong here.

          1. Meritarchy Avatar
            Meritarchy
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            You are confusing physics and metaphysics. Physics is reality in measure, weight, size and so on. This can perfectly be investigated by science. Metaphysics comes from Greek “Meta” which means beyond physics. Now we can argue how and when the universe started, and that is 100% a scientific question as it fully pertains the physical world. This we do not care about here. What we care about here is what happened the second before physical reality began. We can argue where exactly is the line, but there must be a line somewhere. What exactly happened before the first law of physics came into existence. This can’t be investigated with the laws of physics as by definition we are talking about what was there before the laws of physics. You seem to be saying this is a concept that i am making up to cover my lack of understanding for science. I am saying a different thing, i am saying that if we want to investigate why we are here we are by definition starting the second before the latest scientifical discovery. Science is extending its realm credibly in what was in the past fully considered metaphysical. My question and doubt is if there is an ultimate line beyond which science is not explanatory. This is in any case the land we should be talking about not what happened after the big bang.

            1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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              My answer to you was marked as spam unfortunately. Very odd, this doesn’t happen very often to me.

              I’m going to use an external text host to share it with you so you can read it anyway, you’ll need to reconstruct the url as they tend to censor/mark as spam those too. The URL is very easy it’s pastebin dot com slash TqdhxQ2Y

            2. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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              I tend to be very verbose, when my main complaint can be explained very shortly so I’ll just do that now so you can have an easier/more focused way of answering:

              Learning about anything that exists ( including about what happened before the Big Bang, if that even makes any sense ), requires evidence about those things ( which we don’t have ), and the use of the scientific method ( which relies on the laws of physics and can not be used to investigate things outside of reality ).

              Things outside of reality are by definition non-existent ( non-existent the way Harry Potter doesn’t exist ). Investigating them is as useful as debating which spell in Harry Potter is the coolest: it interests some people, but it has no relation at all with what is real, and it can not possibly teach us anything about the real world.

              A while back some scientists argued some features they detected in the CMB radiation could teach us something about whatever the Big Bang came from, or about universes parralel to our own which would share a similar origin and would be adjascent to our own universe. But as you can clearly see, this way of learning about things outside our Universe/Big Bang, relies *both* on evidence and on the scientific method. Without these two things, you can not learn anything about anything that actually exists.

    2. Chris Simmons Avatar
      Chris Simmons
      Hide

      These people who say they dont believe in God cause you cannot see him ….are the same people who believe the wind is blowing but they cannot see it either…they believe in radio waves …only they cannot see them either they believe in the atom …only they cannot see it as well they certainly believe in air and oxygen they use it daily ……one problem tho ..they cannot see it ……… if they require proof of God then there seems to be some contradiction on their own part ….

      1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
        Hide

        are the same people who believe the wind is blowing but they cannot see it either…

        I can build a wind turbine and have evidence of the wind. Or even just put my hand in the air and have evidence of the air.

        I can turn on a radio and have evidence of radio waves. I can build a radio myself with just a few electronics components, completely understand how it works, and know for sure there are radio waves. I can use a radiowave detection tool and detect where they are coming from, what their exact frequency, power, and amplitude are, I can get montains of evidence.

        I can use an electron microscope or an electron beam and have evidence of electrons. I can do chemistry and have obvious evidence of electrons. I can design a battery and test it and have evidence of electrons.

        I can detect oxygen and air.

        I do not need to *see* things to believe in them, I believe in things I don’t see all day long. I believe in them because there is EVIDENCE for them.

        If there was no evidence for wind, the same way there is no evidence for god or for ghosts, I would not believe in the wind. But there is evidence for the wind, so I believe in it.

        But there is no evidence for God, so I do not believe in it, of course!

        You also do not believe in things there are no evidence for. You do not believe in Aliens, Yeti, Parralel dimensions, Greek Gods, or Psychics. The reason you do not believe all these, is because there is no evidence for these.

        But for your god, and for your god only, you make an exception, and you believe in him despite the fact there is absolutely no evidence.

        That is a problem, and the day you will realize this is a problem, you will free yourself.

        Before people knew what electrons are, when they saw lightning, they said it was the great Zeus. Just because you can’t explain something, doesn’t mean that automatically an old bearded white guy is the answer. If you are honest and you don’t know, you answer honestly and say “I don’t know”, you don’t make up an answer, that’s just dishonest to do.

        Just in case this is not clear enough, I made a convenient table of truth for you to maybe get a better perspective:

        Claim…/..I.believe../.You.Believe./..There.is.evidence
        Wind…….yes……….yes…………yes
        Electrons..yes……….yes…………yes
        Ghosts…..no………..no………….no
        Loch.ness..no………..no………….no
        Zeus…….no………..no………….no
        Aliens…..no………..no………….no
        God……..no………..yes…………no

        See that lonely “yes” at the bottom? Logic tells us it’s very obviously a mistake…

        What if a believer in Aliens told you : 

        These people who say they dont believe in The Great Alien Overlord cause you cannot see him ….are the same people who believe the wind is blowing but they cannot see it either…they believe in radio waves …only they cannot see them either they believe in the atom …only they cannot see it as well they certainly believe in air and oxygen they use it daily ……one problem tho ..they cannot see it ……… if they require proof of The Great Alien Overlord then there seems to be some contradiction on their own part ….

        Would this convince you that The Great Alien Overlord exists? If not, can you understand how your argument would also not be convincing to anyone? There is no evidence for The Great Alien Overlord, there is no evidence for your God, the right thing to do in that situation, is to withhold belief in both, no?

        Or maybe you disagree that there is no evidence for your god ( which would be weird after you just tried to argue that evidence doesn’t matter … ), and if so, I’m very curious what you think the evidence is.

        1. Chris Simmons Avatar
          Chris Simmons
          Hide

          Your argument cannot disprove God either ….let me ask you how do you think life on earth began? And taking this question into account with the fact Louis pasteur already proved by his experiments that life only comes from life …evidence right there …life cannot arise from non life …how do you believe life began? In a recent science article ..I’ll be happy to get the link if needed ….science has stated we are all related ….and that if you go back far enough you will come to one man and one woman. It certainly sounds like genesis to me ….these things are fact according to science ….so how do you think life began. ?

          1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
            Hide

            You’re completely missing the point. Yes, my argument does in fact not disprove there is a god. It does not need to, and you actually *can not* disprove there is a god, the same way you can not disprove there are ghosts and Thor and Zeus. *You* can not disprote there is no Ra, does this mean you now have to believe in Ra? Of course not… therefore just because I can not disprove your God, does not mean I or anyone else should believe he exists. You should believe things exists only when evidence is presented, and you have so far presented none. I promise you if you presented evidence I would consider it seriously and honestly, and would change my mind if convinced.

            It’s non-sense to ask somebody to disprove a god, but it completely makes sense to ask somebody to prove there is a god.

            You could prove your god exists if he does exist, but neither you or I can disprove Zeus exists, and nobody in the same way can disprove your god exists.

            This isn’t an argument about disproving your god, this is an argument about whether there is enough evidence to believe your god exists. If there is not enough evidence to believe he exists, then we should all withhold belief in him ( which is not the same as believing he does not exist, if you are following ).

            Does this make sense now? I’ve explained this in like 5 different fashions in the first comment and it seems to have completely gone over your head. Please tell me if you still don’t get it I’ll keep trying.

            About how life on Earth begin, science has lots of known possibilities, we know lots of ways it could have happened, and we know the way it did happen is extremely likely one of those ways, but we no not at this moment have enough proof to know which way it happened ( we get more and more proof all the time though, and are definitely getting closer to an answer all the time. and none of the options that have evidence for them are “a god” ). So, I do not know exactly how life appeared ( which does not mean I do not know anything about it, as explained above, in fact we know too much, and just need more evidence to figure out which of the options are not the right ones ).

            life cannot arise from non life

            There is nobody in the entire scientific community that says this. At all. This is only something a fringe of non-scientific and scientifically illiterate religious figures say without actually caring what the science and the scientists say on this. This is completely opposed to what the evidence says. All evidence is to the contrary of this. Say this in front of any of the tens of thousands of biologists on Earth right now, and all you will do is create frustration and consternation in them, I promise you. The more polite of the scientists might be charitable and act like you are misunderstanding something and try to help, but most will probably just shoot their eyes at the ceiling recognizing popular lies about their field.

            Louis Pasteur did not prove that life only comes from non-life, not in the way you are saying at least ( and if somebody told you this, they lied to you, which seems to happen often, you should be careful and maybe exercise more skepticism? ), that is not even what he ever set out to prove, so there is no chance he would have proven something he never set out to prove. He discovered bacteria and all that microscopic world, that people were not aware of before him, and proved the prevailing ideas at the time, which imagined the effects of these bacteria were in fact caused “out of thin air”, were wrong. Proving these theories wrong is not the same *at all* as proving life “only comes from life”.

            Proving the life in Pasteur’s test tubes only comes from similar life, is not saying anything about life 3 billion years ago, at all. It is completely unrelated, and if somebody told you they are related and this argument has any weight, they lied to you and tried to confuse you on the science about this.

            The scientific field of a-biogenesis tells us a lot about how life appeared, and there are lots of well known phenomenon and mechanisms at play, for which we have mountains of evidence. Evidence I can provide you if you ask.

            Your position however, that a god did it, has zero evidence supporting it.

            And even if science has zero answer to the question of a-bio-genesis ( which is not the case, it has much more than that ), but even if it did not have any answer, it would do absolutely nothing to prove your god exists. If we did not know how life appeared, it would not magically mean that the default is that your god did it. You would have to prove your god exists ( you haven’t ), and you would have to prove that he is responsible for creating life ( you haven’t either ).

            See the issue here? The issue is you are lacking evidence. Science has tons of evidence on this. You have none.

            And you are misrepresenting science. You were wrong about what Pasteur said, and you were wrong in the previous comment about evolution ( nice dodge by the way completely avoiding acknowledging you were wrong, and just sliding discretely to another argument when one is demolished, not very fair play of you ).

            Two things can be going on here, either you are really dishonest in misrepresenting the science when you say things about the science that are definitely wrong like this two, and if that is the case, I have no interest in talking with somebody dishonest like that, just tell me and I’ll shut up.

            The other possibility would be that you have been lied to ( it seems much more likely ), and if that’s the case, the honest thing for you to do would be to be curious about why I say you have been lied to, and ask me to provide you with evidence that you have been. Do you think you are going to do/ask that? Or do you just not care what is true here?

            Evolution does say we are all related, it’s very likely ( and it would be obvious why this is for anyone understanding the science ) from the scientific study of evolution and a-biogenesis, that the current tree of evolution had a single starting point/trunk, at the microbiological level. That does not in any way indicate or prove creation or “genesis” in the way you mean. It just indicates evolution had a chemically humble beginning, and likely started very simple before branching out and evolving from that, that’s all. Absolutely no god required anywhere here, everything here is perfectly explainable without him.

            You say “these things are according to science”, but I assure you you are completely wrong on what science says. I think a good place to start, instead of just me answering volumes each time, would be if I take you up on that offer of showing me that journal article you think proves a god created life. Then we can go from there.

            1. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
              Hide

              Sir with all do respect your statement ..” louis pasteur did not disprove that life only comes from non life” is not what I said ….
              I said he proved life can only come from life .that it cannot arise from non living matter …..he proved this by experiments….no one has ever shown life arising from non life…..this as always seems to be a problem for atheist but telling me someone lied to me is laughable.apparently you do not agree with this …..and that’s ok

            2. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              It’s obviously a typo, if you read my sentence as written it would sound like I agree with you, which the rest of the message obviously shows I don’t. Just replace

              « louis pasteur did not disprove that life only comes from non life »

              with

              « louis pasteur did not prove that life only comes from other life »

              and you should be fine restarting your reading of the text from there.

              sorry for the typo.

              And no, his experiments have not proven your point in any way, if you read the rest of my message you will see I explain how this is so, but if you want more explanations and evidence please just ask and I will provide them.

            3. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
              Hide

              Thank you

            4. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
              Hide

              I’m not the one going into long explanation s to try to make sense of my argument …..nor will I try to convince you …..I given you my point and you seem to have an answer …for all of it … wish you the best

            5. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
              Hide

              You get on here talking bout they are creating life in the labs already …..that’s my point you say “they ” who you must mean scientist ….but what you not considering is without the intelligent minds of scientist….none of this life they are creating occurs……ever. its synthetic life it’s not the same as human life …does this defeat louis pasteur s experiments ? Of course not …..the main point is life starting by itself ……in his experiments no life began …..therefore no life from non living matter ….in your explanation that life is being created ..you asked me if I know that is already happening …its irrelevant because your point is life being created already by who? Intelligent minds …who if they are not causing this to happen it never does happen……understand? It’s totally different from what pastuer proved gather all your scientist together ….ask them to just sit and never act …and see if life is created because that’s what would have had to happen on earth ….but it never has

            6. Glen Steen Avatar
              Glen Steen
              Hide

              Yeah, 2 years late.☺️
              Carl Sagan has an answer to Chris Simmons condition.
              “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe”
              Simmons doesn’t understand Evolution & hasn’t or won’t read ‘Origin of Species’. While many Atheists have read the Bible. As someone has said, ” Atheists are made when they read the Bible. Christians are made when someone reads the Bible for them.”
              Nothing to do with a-bio-genesis Arthur has covered that very well.

          2. dgk Avatar
            dgk
            Hide

            Chris, calm down. No one is saying God did not create the universe. Nobody can prove or disprove the existence of God. Even if you have a Bible in your hand that is a book, not God. It doesn’t prove anything either way.

            Assuming God created all that there is it still leaves the question of how did God come to be? Were back to that pesky quandary again as it can’t be explained

          3. Arthur Wolf Avatar
            Hide

            You never answered my comment below despite at first seeming open to defend your beliefs. It happens all the time so I’m not too sad, however you mentionned an article, and despite offering to provide a link, and me asking for the link, you never gave it. So here’s me asking again, really curious about it.
            Thanks!

            1. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
              Hide

              What happens all the time? Life coming from non life ? It’s never happened before if so I ask you to provide that evidence . I’ll find the link regarding we are all connected

            2. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              What happens all the time? Life coming from non life ?

              Ok. Basic human interaction lesson.

              When somebody says.

              « X Y Z, this happens all the time, but A B C. »

              What “happens all the time” is X Y Z. The thing that immediately precedes “this happens all the time”, and therefore what “this happens all the time” is referring to.

              In this case, what “happens all the time” is people not answering/stopping conversations when they run out of valid answers.

              Life coming from non-life does not happen all the time. We have plenty of ideas of how it did happen at the origin of life however.

              And we’ve been able to reproduce most steps in the lab (and we reproduce more of it every year, we’re pretty close to going all the way through I believe).

              There is a ton of evidence for abiogenesis, there’s really too much to even start to list in a comment. We can see life getting less and less complex as we go back in time, it’s pretty obvious from understanding the process, it started at a point of extreme simplicity.

              I really would expect anyone over the age of 8 to get this.

            3. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
              Hide

              https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/article/2016/05/18/science-confirms-how-we-all-really-are-descended-eve

            4. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
              Hide

              Another thing Stephen Hawking stating that because there is a law like gravity the universe can and will create itself out of nothing that’s a flat-out contradiction he’s sitting there saying that there’s a law like gravity and the universe creates itself from nothing well clearly that’s something

            5. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              Absolutely incredible.

              After two years, your article that proves that bilbical eve existed …. is an article that proves that she did not. You just didn’t read it. Absolutely wild and crazy.

              The article:

              * Does not claim she was the first human
              * Does not claim she was the only female alive at her time
              * Does not claim she was alive alone with a single male.

              Your idea that mitochondrial eve proves the biblical eve is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the science, and/or directly lying about it. The article itself explains how it’s wrong… Did you read it?

              You claim in your previous comment “if we go back far enough, you will come to one man and one woman, it certainly sounds like genesis to me”.

              But IN THE VERY ARTICLE YOU LINK, they debunk this claim. You DID NOT EVEN READ the article you think supports your position. Talk about blind faith…

              The article itself explains she was not the FIRST human, I quote YOUR ARTICLE: « prior to “eve” there were actually still many females living, but all of those lines have died out ».

              Your ignorance is astounding.

              Talk about shooting yourself in the foot…

              It’s referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

              They call her eve because that’s a neat way to present the idea, however the concept is **nothing** like the Bible’s eve.

              It only means that if you trace back all lineages through DNA; you can find a single individual all humans share as a maternal ancestor.
              This does not in any way mean/indicate there was ever a single female human alive, or even less a single couple. The science, THIS science, does not say that *in any way*.

              In fact, the science explicitly says that at the time when mitochondrial eve was alive, there were thousands of living males an thousands of living females around.

              Completely incompatible with your bible story. Absolutely does not support it.

              You believe it does, because you do not understand the science, and people twist the science to lie to you.

              It’s such a common lie, Wikipedia even mentions it in the header:

              The name “Mitochondrial Eve” alludes to the biblical Eve, which has led to repeated misrepresentations or misconceptions in journalistic accounts on the topic. Popular science
              presentations of the topic usually point out such possible
              misconceptions by emphasizing the fact that the position of mt-MRCA is
              neither fixed in time (as the position of mt-MRCA moves forward in time
              as mitochondrial DNA
              (mtDNA) lineages become extinct), nor does it refer to a “first woman”,
              nor the only living female of her time, nor the first member of a “new
              species”

            6. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
              Hide

              No my man I’m using it to show you your material world of science said what it said

            7. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              Such bullshit.

              You CLAIMED you had an article that proved biblical eve. Look a few comments up. Let me quote you:

              In a recent science article ..I’ll be happy to get the link if needed ….science has stated we are all related ….and that if you go back far enough you will come to one man and one woman. It certainly sounds like genesis to me ….

              That is YOU claiming you have an article that proves biblical eve.

              You claimed your article proves ONE MAN ONE WOMAN alive alone on Earth with no other humans, and proves genesis (that is, the first humans, having no ancestors)

              And when you finally, after two years, give a link to the article, the article HILARIOUSLY debunks the claim of biblical eve by explaining mitochondrial eve was in fact not the first human, but HAD ANCESTORS.

              It’s RIGHT there in YOUR article.

              The article also never claims she was the only human around. Completely incompatible with the bible.

              You shot yourself in the foot there man.

            8. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
              Hide

              Again your not paying attention . My words stated that we were all connected and that your material world with science at the helm had the article . You seem to forget your on the side of science or am I wrong? If I’m wrong then please accept my apologies. Bullshit is believing we all came from non living matter ……. I mean we can go all day long with your words saying bullshit but I got better thing s to do . Sincerely

            9. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              Such bullshit sidestepping excuse-making red-herring.

              You claimed you had evidence for biblical eve. YOU said that. I quoted it, twice.

              I asked for the evidence.

              I waited two years for it.

              And when you finally give that evidence for biblical eve, the VERY article you used as evidence DISPROVES genesis.

              You can say all the nonsese you want about the material world of science, that won’t change the fact that you just disproved yourself.

            10. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              Read the thread again.

              You claimed you had an article that provided evidence for bilbical eve. I asked for that article. You then provided that article. And that article NOT ONLY did not provide evidence for biblical eve, but DEBUNKED biblical eve.

              Try all the wriggling around you want, you completely ridiculed your own point…

            11. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              You: I have an article that proves Biblical Eve.

              Me: Give me your article.

              **3 years later**

              You: Here is my article.

              **article not only does not prove biblical eve, but DEBUNKS biblical eve**

              Me: Facepalm.

      2. william matthews Avatar
        william matthews
        Hide

        I respect your desire to have a God Explanation for this profoundly human quandary, and you may very well be right, but the examples of physical processes you give are not relevant in any meaningful way.

      3. Arthur Wolf Avatar
        Hide

        Chris. By the way, let me say this while I’m thinking of it. I have received a lot of comments from you, and it is incredibly difficult to know WHAT you are answering. We exchange a lot of comments, and I have to guess from context which of the comments you are answering, sometimes having to read several comments to understand from the context which it was. Let me teach you a tip that will help you be much better at being understood by others ( not just me ) in the future.

        When answering some radical evolutionist idiot’s comment, you can just copy/paste the part of their comment you are answering ( you just need to do this once at the top of the comment, if you don’t want to do more, it’s most of the time largely enough to make sure people understand what you are answering. ).

        And then around that copy/pasted part of the idiot’s comment, you just add the blockquote tags. You can use the buttons in the bottom bar ( the one with “Bold”, “Italic”, etc, it’s the last icon there, the one with the “Quotes”. Or you can type it by hand ( it’s pretty fast to type ).

        Let me show you what it looks like:

        < blockquote >
        Hey I’m an idiot that believes in evolution because I want to sin
        < / blockquote >

        Hey idiot evolutionist, I’m Chris, I love you even if you’re really stupid and mean, and I would under no circumstances say anything dishonest to you, I’m always perfectly logical, and I care absolutely about what is true and what is not. If you gave me evidence of evolution, I would immediately start believing it, but of course you will never do that, because evolution is a lie invented by the devil.

        When you type this in a comment, it will then look like this in the comment itself:

        Hey I’m an idiot that believes in evolution because I want to sin

        Hey idiot evolutionist, I’m Chris, I love you even if you’re really stupid and mean, and I would under no circumstances say anything dishonest to you, I’m always perfectly logical, and I care absolutely about what is true and what is not. If you gave me evidence of evolution, I would immediately start believing it, but of course you will never do that, because evolution is a lie invented by the devil.

        See? That’s super easy, and it makes you super easier to understand.

        1. Chris Simmons Avatar
          Chris Simmons
          Hide

          For whatever reason I cannot copy and paste to this site …I have tried. …send me what you say is the truth about life forming on it’s own let me read it

          1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
            Hide

            For whatever reason I cannot copy and paste to this site …I have
            tried.

            It’s very buggy for me. Every time I copy/paste something, it takes every set of “new lines” ( lines with nothing on them ), and multiplies whatever number there is by 2 or 3. So if I have like 3 “empty” lines between two paragraphs, and I copy/paste something you’ve said 3 times, i now have like 24 new lines between EACH paragraph, and I have to erase all of them by hand. It’s been very annoying. But not being able to copy/paste *at all* would be worse. Does it not work even if you use ctrl+c ctrl+v or the copy/paste options in the top menu of your browser?

            …send me what you say is the truth about life forming on it’s
            own let me read it

            Ok, that’s very exciting to hear, it’s very surprising that you’d suddenly become curious and now would want to see the evidence. Sometimes you do complete flips like this it’s sort of making me seasick, it’s almost like there’s a nice guy and his annoying little brother sharing the same account and switching who comments every few hours ( if you actually have a little brother who has access to your account, you should definitely check to see if all the comments you see your account post were posted by you! )
            But I don’t want to jinx this, if you are sincerely looking for evidence, I am going to work on providing it.

            I think the simplest thing you can start with, is to go where I will be going a lot, the Wikipedia page for “Abiogenesis“, this is very easy to find with Google ( I am not posting the link directly because that has a high risk of Disquss’s antisp*am systems refusing to display my message because it contains a link and therefore is suspect as maybe being an advertisement ). I personally will not be using the Wikipedia page itself a lot, but I will be using the hundreds of sources you can find at the bottom. The Wikipedia page on a subject’s sources list is a very very good way to find links to actual scientific papers/experiments on a subject, and I nearly always use it as my main “entry point” into the actual scientific literature on a subject.

            I am not sure what to do with a request that is as vast as “the truth about life forming on it’s own” though. It would be more productive if we chose a more specific subject, and went over it together ( we can then move on to whatever else we want after that, and keep going to more and more subjects ). This is a very vast subject/domain, abiogenesis has tens of thousands of researchers, many more experiments, and lots of knowledge and sub-fields. What in particular is of interest to you? What for example convinces you that abiogenesis is false? I think if you told me things like this, I would then be able to point you at specific experiments that are relevant to your objections. Deal? If you don’t want to give me more details/point out more precisely what you are curious about or what you suspect is wrong, then I will just make an attempt at giving a more general presentation. Just tell me.

            Also, I would be incredibly interested to know, how would YOU learn about this subject? For example, you have said you have studied science on your own, but then when you talked about evolution, you kept saying things that are clearly the “modified” version some christian preachers use to misrepresent evolution. What you said was nothing to do with what you would find on Wikipedia or in a scientific paper, but it was *exactly* like what was in books I have head by preachers who were lying to their flock about what evolution actually says. So that’s why I’m asking, you remember we had a dispute about “where you get your information from”, would you mind telling me where you do get it? If I tell you “ABIOGENESIS”, what do you do to learn more about it? Where do you go? Do you really go to a preacher’s book or website like I just said/presumed/guessed, or do you go somewhere else I have not thought about ??

            1. Chris Simmons Avatar
              Chris Simmons
              Hide

              I’m on mobile I can copy but when I try to paste it gives no option to allow it

            2. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              So, in the end I guess this means you don’t have an interest in having this conversation? That’s a bit sad, I really wish we could have had it.

              I feel really confident if you engaged, and we were able to stay focused on a single thread of conversation, we’d be able to make progress/get either of us closer to the truth of this matter. I asked you a series of questions about what more precisely you wanted to talk about regarding abiogenesis, but you never answered, and only answered the bit about copy/pasting. Maybe I’m missing something, maybe disquss bugged and part of your message is not visible?

              Whatever it is, I’m around if you want to talk about this, I’m very interested in the topic, and think progress can be made if we have an honest and open conversation.

              What convinces you that abiogenesis is false? Why are you not convinced by the evidence presented by the scientific community? Where do you get your information about abiogenesis?

              Cheers.

          2. Arthur Wolf Avatar
            Hide

            Also, don’t waste time on this if you don’t want, this is purely for me to better understand you, but I would be incredibly interested to know, how would YOU learn about this subject of abiogenesis?

            For example, you have said you have studied science on your own, but then when you talked about evolution, you kept saying things that are clearly the “modified” version some christian preachers use to misrepresent evolution. ( don’t get upset I’m just sincerely telling you how it sincerely looked like from my perspective, maybe I’m missing something, which is why I’m asking ).

            What you said was nothing to do with what you would find on Wikipedia or in a scientific paper, and the things you said, no scientist I have ever met would ever say, but it was *exactly* like what was in books I have read by preachers who were lying to their flock about what evolution actually says ( as I have told you, I have really given a chance to the christian ideas, I have read the books from your side quite a bit, to try to see if they had good arguments to convince me ).

            So that’s why I’m asking, you remember we had a dispute about “where you get your information from”, would you mind telling me where you do get it?

            If I tell you “ABIOGENESIS”, what do you do to learn more about it? Where do you go? Do you really go to a preacher’s book or website like I just said/presumed/guessed, or do you go somewhere else I have not thought about ??

    3. william matthews Avatar
      william matthews
      Hide

      Your answer is as good as any I’ve heard but the problem is that actually I have never heard a convincing answer. I keep returning to the idea that the human mind/brain/soul/whatever is INCAPABLE of ever understanding or explaining this matter because of it’s inherent limitations.

    4. Bali Bar Avatar
      Bali Bar
      Hide

      But that just kicks the can down the road rather than formulate an articulate and coherent response. An uncaused causation is problematic, whether it be “god” or and atheistic “something from nothing”. You are just playing linguistic switcharoo.

      1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
        Hide

        An uncaused causation is problematic, whether it be “god” or and atheistic “something from nothing”.

        No it’s not. Un-caused causes are problematic within time as we currently experience it. But if we are talking about the origin of the universe, and therefore the origin of time, we have no reason to assume there is such a thing as time (or at least time as we understand it) outside/before the universe, and therefore causation stops being a concern. No time, no causation. No causation no problem.

      2. Meritarchy Avatar
        Meritarchy
        Hide

        Ok and what would be your alternative logical explanation?

  19. Barth Avatar
    Barth
    Hide

    The thing you cannot grasp is that the concept of “nothing” is but a function of the physical reality…. And anything that goes beyond the physical reality is no longer a “something” or a “nothing”. We linger on this because we judge and percieve all other possible realities based off our physical senses which is inaccurate because they might not be percievable by our physical senses. So in actuality, nothing and something are only usable within the boundaries of the physical world. God for example or angels or demons aren’t something neither are they nothing….

    1. Glen Steen Avatar
      Glen Steen
      Hide

      God, angels, etc aren’t even in the discussion they are myths. There is no evidence for their existence. They were conjured up in the imaginations of Bronze Age sheep & goat herders to control their people. Nothing better than an invisible god watching your every move to scare the living ????out of their people.

      Are you in fact, saying god, angles or demons are nether something or nothing because they don’t exist

    2. Glen Steen Avatar
      Glen Steen
      Hide

      God, angels, etc aren’t even in the discussion they are myths. There is no evidence for their existence. They were conjured up by the imaginations of Bronze Age Sheep & goat herders to control their people.Nothing better than an invisible being to scare the people.

  20. Barth Avatar
    Barth
    Hide

    The con

  21. Dragon Khan Avatar
    Dragon Khan
    Hide

    I think that maybe existence is not needed for something to be “solid” or “consistent”.

    Imagine the world in The lord of the rings, it does not exist yet things inside feel solid from the point of view of a character inside of it.
    Now imagine a world of a book that no one has written or even thought about, it would be just a “possibility”, yet it could be perfectly solid and real from the inside, just as a “possibility”.

    I think that we could be part of a possibility lost within a sea of nothingness, that does not need to exist in order to be consistent and feel solid from the inside.

  22. MrNobody Avatar
    MrNobody
    Hide

    What if nothing is actually you observing something. Think about it. You actually don’t exist, you don’t have a body, you aren’t ‘your’ thoughts, and you can’t remember anything at all. That’s what your brain/body do/let.
    The moment before birth and after death there is nothing, like a coin flip. You can’t have both.

  23. Flying Purple Pizzas Avatar
    Flying Purple Pizzas
    Hide

    What if someone created a video game with certain rules to give participants who would normally know these answers to existence the chance to forget and play a naive character and be able to ask and think and wonder about the greater truths? What if this absurd ‘life’ is just such a game?

    1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
      Hide

      There is zero evidence for this being true though, so I wouldn’t worry too much about it.

  24. Mia Avatar
    Mia
    Hide

    What if there is an infinite creator who exists outside of space and time, creating the universe with an order displayed in math, DNA, physical laws, the existence of a sense of right and wrong…
    I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist and believe that all of this “something” and thereby the concept of “nothing” occurred without “something” initiating the process.

    Sometimes (at least in my case) it takes the ruining of ourselves in order to see past ourselves into what is true.

    1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
      Hide

      What if a universe-creating pixie smurfed the Universe into existence? All explanations are equally as valid if they all have an equal amount of evidence for them ( that amount here being zero ).

      You don’t get to insert a creator into this question before you have actually provided evidence for a creator.

      What is your evidence for an infinite creator?

      1. Glen Steen Avatar
        Glen Steen
        Hide

        The explanation of the creation in the bible & the Quran are bogus.

    2. George El-Azar Avatar
      George El-Azar
      Hide

      As the author of this article rightfully argues, you still hit the same wall by positing a creator as the explanation, even an infinite one beyond time and space. The question still remains: why something (in this case, the infinite creator) rather than nothing? Why is there anything at all?

      Whether there’s an infinite creator or not, I think the answer has to lie in the potential fact that the whole of reality is a necessary manifestation of existence. Perhaps this whole reality exists because this is the only metaphysically possible way. In this sense, perhaps the “why” then makes no sense and the question is akin to why don’t we have squares that are simultaneously circles?

      1. Glen Steen Avatar
        Glen Steen
        Hide

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f0db780dfc4bd771d6098f5dc1528766a1449d3bf3053712d9b3c4cfc430da69.jpg The answer is that the vacuum of ’empty’ space has energy. Virtual particles popping in & out of reality so fast we can’t see them. We know they are there as empty space weighs something. The picture is of the virtual particles popping in & out of reality. If we keep it to science there is an explanation. Philosophers can go tearing off in as many directions as they wish but it means nothing.

        Here’s the scientific explanation.

        The Nature of Nothingness: Understanding the Vacuum Catastrophe

        https://medium.com/nakshatra/the-nature-of-nothingness-understanding-the-vacuum-catastrophe-c04033e752f4
        You may understand this a little better as it is written for the layperson.
        Virtual Particles: What are they?
        https://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/virtual-particles-what-are-they/
        There is no room for philosophy in the discussion of science. Philosophy makes up its own rules as it needs them. Science abides by the laws of nature.
        If you have some time here’s Lawrence Krauss explaining why there is something created from nothing. No creator/deity required!
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6nIWKIqf9o

        https://medium.com/nakshatra/the-nature-of-nothingness-understanding-the-vacuum-catastrophe-c04033e752f4

        1. George El-Azar Avatar
          George El-Azar
          Hide

          You and Krauss can call this “nothing”, but it’s not the “nothing” Tim is asking about. Please reread the article to see what the topic is about exactly. I’m glad you love science (so do I) but your answer doesn’t address the original question being posed. One can ask why is there this quantum vacuum in the first place? I don’t think this is a question that’s already been settled by science.

          1. Glen Steen Avatar
            Glen Steen
            Hide

            What ‘nothing’ is he talking about?

            You don’t you think Krauss settled it in his book?
            I don’t pretend to understand it all but with the limited amount of physics I know, I think Krauss’ explanation is plausible. If extended it explains multi-universes as well.

            1. George El-Azar Avatar
              George El-Azar
              Hide

              You can reread the blog post above. Tim isn’t thinking of “nothing” as an empty vacuum (in fact, he considers that a “false nothing”). For Tim, it’s such a crazy concept that it’s hard to wrap one’s mind around. Is it even possible to have absolute nothingness? And if there was “ever” absolute nothingness, why is there something “now”? You said yourself in your previous response that the vacuum Krauss speaks of has “stuff” in it. So no way have these questions been settled by the likes of Krauss, who while he is an astrophysicist is not a relevant expert on these matters. At best, Krauss has provided a plausible explanation for how this particular universe has come about, and not ultimately why something rather than “nothing at all”.

            2. Glen Steen Avatar
              Glen Steen
              Hide

              No it is not plusable to have absolute nothingness. Unless of course it is a philosophical ‘nothingness’ where a philosopher made up the definition based on some other created defintions & assumptions.If you’re speaking of the real world there there is no such thing as ‘nothing’.

            3. George El-Azar Avatar
              George El-Azar
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              plausible*

              And I’m not sure what you’re arguing really. You appear to be missing the point here. The point of the article is that “absolute nothingness” is a crazy concept. And I agree. That, in fact, was basically what I was saying. What are you arguing about exactly? That a “real nothing” is really “something with stuff in it” like the quantum vacuum? That’s a very weird way to look at “nothing”, lol. And if that’s not what you’re saying, then what were you even saying earlier?

              And why the gripe with philosophy when science itself depends on various philosophical views on epistemology, ontology, and even ethics? Without philosophy, you can have no science.

            4. Glen Steen Avatar
              Glen Steen
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              It appears that intellectually you’re way over my head. You are right. I get that “real nothing” is actually “something”. I ignored the concept of ‘absolute nothingness’. The concept of “absolute nothingness” is a “crazy concept” that is beyond my comprehension. I can think on one level but not very well at any other levels beyond the 1st.

              Searched for “absolute nothingness” & got this https://beyond-universe.fandom.com/wiki/Absolute_Nothingness which confused me even more. It’s philosophy & I just don’t get it. Seems to me that when philosophy needs ‘something’ to define or prove ‘something else’ it is made up using ‘other philosophical concepts’.

              To compare philosophy to science, is to say science would be making up evidence/observations to prove the hypothesis, which the scientific method does not allow. That’s why I have a problem with philosophy. Again it may be my inability to get off the first level of thinking.

            5. George El-Azar Avatar
              George El-Azar
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              I don’t much care for that Wiki link to be honest. The Wiki article linked to is worded in a very bizarre manner and doesn’t come off as professional or academic. We can safely ignore that. Just look at it this way: how else would you reasonably define “nothing” if not “lack of anything”? Normally, when people ponder the question of why there is anything rather than nothing at all, they are not just wondering how this local universe arose but why anything exists at all. For example, why is there this quantum vacuum in the first place? What “mandated” its existence? Or is it pure random? If random, then why this in particular? Why couldn’t it have been randomly nothing AT ALL? The answer being suggested by some folks including academic philosophers is that “absolute nothing” isn’t possible, that there has to be something in existence, or else we get what appears to be a logically incoherent statement: that absolute non-existence somehow “exists”.

              I get you’re not a fan of philosophy, but if it weren’t for philosophy, we wouldn’t be able to establish the legitimacy of something like the scientific method. Science didn’t just come about out of nowhere. It’s a process that is deemed the best means of attaining knowledge about the world “mechanically”; it is systematic, rigorous, and aims to minimize the influences of human bias as much as possible. But, definition-wise, it isn’t rigidly set in stone, and you have a bunch of philosophical views that must be assumed/accepted by default in science. You can’t justify them with the scientific method itself. One famous example is (as you know) falsificationism: a good scientific hypothesis/theory is one that is worded in a way that it can be falsified. Take philosophy away, and you’re taking away a very important philosophical view (one among many) that today’s science generally relies on.

            6. Glen Steen Avatar
              Glen Steen
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              Is this a better definition by an academic? I don’t understand this one. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nishida-kitaro/#AbsNot

            7. George El-Azar Avatar
              George El-Azar
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              Seems like my earlier response got deleted for some reason. I’ll try again:

              https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nothingness/

              ^ More relevant to the topic we’re discussing.

  25. Ignacio Barbero Avatar
    Ignacio Barbero
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    To affirm there is ‘nothing’ you need an entity capable of percieving there is ‘nothing’, which is something itself. Therefore this statement is never possible. The only possible statement is “There is something”. We are limited to think maybe in other ‘instances’ of ‘reality’ there might be ‘nothing’, whatever that means, but we will never know.

  26. Benjamin Avatar
    Benjamin
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    Almost every commenter here knows the true answer… What a surprise…
    If you ‘know’ then take a stroll over to your nearest university and have a chat with a few scientists who study this for a living. Maybe, just maybe, you might find out how high you are in the Dunning-Kruger pinnacle of stupidity.

  27. Eriik Vesrpui Avatar
    Eriik Vesrpui
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    Nothingness came into existance probably 10-100k years ago and is a creation by human consciousness. At that point ‘creation’ and ‘design’ also came into existence into both subjective and objective reality. Prior to that all things came into being only by enthrophy and randomness; nothing was designed or created with intent or imagination. It’s one of many theorethical realities, which can probably be expressed in math, but the probability of such a reality actually existing most probably approaches 1/infinite.

    Even a vacuum is not Nothingness. It’s space, potentially filled with quantum entanglements or even dark matter.

    Beyond the unknown universe, there may not be nothingness. There is no way of ever knowing with certainty what is there at T minus one before the big bang (unless we are able to re-create those conditions), and these not knowable answers are very uncomfortable for the sentient being with limited cognition which has an evolutionary need for certainty and exact answers. We can however imagine lots of theoretical possibilities which is great mental gymnastics and enterainment. I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it though.

    1. dan Avatar
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      Suppose the bianary code of life was contrived and not completely random and not completely isolated to one tiny planet in an inconceivably large space by chance. That engineer is the creator. Let’s just call him God.

      1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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        Evolution isn’t chance. Abiogenesis is not chance. You seem to be under the mistaken impression life has to start complex: it doesn’t.

        There are plenty of paths for abiogenesis being explored, and all of them start from very simple beginnings that would be likely to occur on primordial Earth. Then evolution makes things more complex over time, inevitably.

        No need for a creator, purely natural processes have the potential to explain this perfectly fine.

        1. Jimmy Avatar
          Jimmy
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          Evolution is exactly chance. Live evolving to optimize for current conditions. And those conditions constantly changing.

          1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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            No. Evolution is a process, that *includes* chance as part of it.

            But it’s not *just* chance, which is what people mean when they say things like « It couldn’t just have happened by chance » which is what I was answering to.

            A game of poker has chance as part of the game, but it’s not *just* chance, it’s not completely up to chance who will win.

    2. Jimmy Avatar
      Jimmy
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      The animals all around me seems to clearly have. consciousness as well. So, it likely appeared before humans.

    3. Glen Steen Avatar
      Glen Steen
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      It may help to figure out T–1 when the James Webb Telescope goes up in 2021. There will be cameras that can see thru the 300k years of opaque stuff and see the actual start of the Big Bang. It won’t tell us what happen before the start but we’ll be much closer to the answer.

  28. Sharon Yencharis Avatar
    Sharon Yencharis
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    Read the book Sapiens or even Ishmael by Quinn. Most of this is self important human stuff. Any Rumi quote will give you “the” answer. But I have a mathematical formula for happiness that addresses just this as it relates to human consciousness and how to ground ourselves in this reality without all the “self importance” of a question like this. Ultimately no one really cares because we are all off doing our own thing. The real answer lies in the way to be ok with our very own baseline of who we are regardless of this information that confounds us and the knowledge and answers we seek.

    1. Benjamin Avatar
      Benjamin
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      Or not… That’s the point. One might have to assume there is an ultimate truth then tackle it. Perhaps the concept of matter and “something” is ultimately always true – through human consciousness or not. Meaning, our subjective understanding may be dirtying the water – or not. For example, mathematical truths do not (probably) rely on human “stuff” (it’s true no matter if you’re another species or even an alien).
      So your response is the equivalent of a cop-out, or not. But it’s pointless to exercise the thought because without any underlying assumptions about ultimate truth, nothing can ever be true or false.

  29. Ankit Avatar
    Ankit
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    Answer of these types of Questions no one knows????, religious wise it’s said that their is a god, but where he is? Who knows? Are all god theories man-made? So, stop asking these types of questions and just live and explore the world. Even neil degrson told that I too don’t know answers of these types of questions ???? Really no one knows

  30. Andrew Oresto Avatar
    Andrew Oresto
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    When asking the question of something rather than nothing, step back and observe what is actually happening in asking the question. Inherent in the asking is a nominal designation of what something is and what nothing is. But in this act of naming, there is an inherent predisposition of an observer that is designating the what is being observed, i.e., something and nothing. The schism between something and nothing can only occur with the precognitive awareness of such a split, it can only occur with an understanding of a language, which agrees upon such a designation. We could only discuss the meaning of such a designation with a mutual communal understanding of a such through language.

    Also inherent in this understanding is the schism or belief in an observer and observed, an observer capable of understanding the distinction between something and nothing. Ultimately, the very existence of the question itself only occurs when these designations are believed to be true reality. But what if these schisms or designations occur only through the misconception that such schisms are real, what if the fabric between observer and observed is of the same element, and the schism between self and other is an illusion? In this case, the schism between something and nothing also becomes an illusion. In this way something and nothing are just two sides of one coin, and we only see each side as mutually exclusive from the other because we believe in the separation… when in fact they are one the same. They only become separate when we fall into the precognitive belief that observer and observed are indeed separate entities reality. And when we hold what is nominally designated as a true separation and not just a function of language.

    If we can experience the world around as if the world is one and the same as our very being. And that nominal designation are a function of the mind’s schism of nature. If we experience our flesh as one and the same as the air we breath, the food we eat, then the observer and observed dichotomy beings to unravel and such conundrums such something rather than nothing take on a new light.

  31. Eric Beland Avatar
    Eric Beland
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    I struggled with this myself. Then I realized the question is flawed. The question presumes the default is “nothing.”

    What if the default is “everything?” In other words, there’s no reason for the universe to be any one thing, including “nothing” so it is simply everything–every possibility that could be, is. Every combination of matter, or sequence of possibilities exists, all in infinite quantities. We just happen to exist in one possibility with conscious matter able to observe our small corner of the infinity of possibilities.

    1. CS Avatar
      CS
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      Your answer is the best as it incorporates a lot of the other answers in format which does not invoke TLDNR.

    2. QANON Avatar
      QANON
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      Yes, but you forget Occams Razor. The simplest solution is more likely, and nothing is more simple than something. Entropy Dude.

  32. CorvusCorax Avatar
    CorvusCorax
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    unfair, Disqus algorithm removed my comment as “autodetected spam” why? It wasn’t. It was even upvoted 🙁
    @Moderator can you look into that?

    1. CorvusCorax Avatar
      CorvusCorax
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      Thanks :-))) Awesome!

  33. Kushagra Dixit Avatar
    Kushagra Dixit
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    Good Article.
    Nothing surprises you anymore once you understand that the universe exists at all. And came from nothing.

    Because the universe came out of nothing and with our intuition and understanding we can never understand something coming out of nothing.
    It makes sense that the unifying theory of the universe which is quantum mechanics (quantum electrodynamics, quantum gravity and other such parts if I am being precise ) is non intuitive and sounds absurd.
    In other worlds logic cannot explain quantum mechanics and hence we had to come up with some mathematical rules to predict quantum behavior. We do not really understand how these rules work, what they are and these rules are really non intuitive. Hence why the universe probably is not understandable.
    By non intuitive I mean it cannot be explained in terms of behaviour we see around us and might go against conventional logic.

  34. Daniel Bigham Avatar
    Daniel Bigham
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    I walked by the university’s chemistry building the other day and it occurred to me that buildings are discrete entities within a particular layer of abstraction of the universe. In the case of a chemistry building, it is an echo of another, much lower-level layer of abstraction in the universe. When we look at a conscious, feeling, creating human, rather than a building, we get a similar inkling — that we are an echo, an image, of a phenomenon much deeper, possibly beyond the bounds of the universe itself.

  35. Chad Avatar
    Chad
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    It certainly is a mind fuck. It just reminds me that the only “nothing” that exists is what we know.

  36. DoctorMcZ Avatar
    DoctorMcZ
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    I am a Muslim

    To answer your question, in Islam there is a saying of our Prophet:

    “A-Shaytan (Devil) may come to one of you, and say: this “Who created this and this phenomenon?” until he says: “Who created your God?”so when they reach that (point of thinking), then they must ask Allah for refuge, and they must end (that line of thinking)”

    Yours is a well thought out article and this above answer would not convince you, but here is a thought. You observe a phenomenon but can’t identify it’s origin. But that doesn’t mean that the phenomenon doesn’t exist. The fact that the Universe exists points to a Creator. He wouldn’t tell you an answer to your question, but is open to having a relationship. So reach out and read the Quran, and you may find some consolation

    1. Mansugyo Avatar
      Mansugyo
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      I would say that you are both right and wrong. Just because we don’t understand something doesn’t result in Islam being right.
      BUT that quote is the only truth in life. Don’t think about it. Thinking about these things to much will drive one insane. We our brains are not made to understand.

      1. Zawar Qayyum Avatar
        Zawar Qayyum
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        The simple solution to this is to say: “O Creator! I want to discover you, and I want to follow the true faith. So please guide me to the true path, or if you don’t guide me, then don’t be angry with me in the Hereafter”.

        I think that is a fairly secular approach to finding your Creator, and at the same time keep reading and researching the different faiths so that you can say that at least you did your investigations.

    2. Glen Steen Avatar
      Glen Steen
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      Hi DoctorMcZ

      It is the same reason for Muslims as it is for Christians. There is no creator. There is no evidence for the existence of a creator therefore he/she/it does not exist. A question, if I may: Since man was created in the image of the creator, does the creator have a penis? If yes,what is it used for? if I offend you, I don’t mean to offend you personally.but to offend some of your ideas your ideas/beliefs & I have no problem with that (Taken from krauss’s explanation of offending) Forgive me, I digress.

      Theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss has shown that a universe can be created from nothing, no deity required. You can get his book A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing at Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Universe-Nothing-There-Something-Rather/dp/1451624468 or you can watch his lecture on youtube from which the book was written. Listen/watch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwzbU0bGOdc

      The basic premise is that there is no such thing as nothing. Empty space weighs something.& he explains how it is weighed. Here’s a youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3xLuZNKhlY showing the virtual particles in the empty space in a proton popping in and out of existence so fast we can’t see them. He also explains this in his lecture & book.These particles weigh something in fact the empty the space inside the proton weighs more than the proton. Is this the Dark Matter & Dark Energy inflating the universe & speeding up the inflation as we get further away from our viewing position? Better stop there as I can’t explain inflation & why it speeds up but I’m sure Krauss or some other physicist, cosmologist, mathematician etc will figure it out or already have. I was going to mention that a philosopher could explain it but I don’t have much faith in philosophy explaining Science.

      1. Zawar Qayyum Avatar
        Zawar Qayyum
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        Thanks for your response Glen. Please see my answer to Arthur Wolf above https://disqus.com/by/disqus_QrbJGG0dwF/ that also addresses some of your points. As to God creating man in his own Image, that is not an Islamic belief so perhaps you can ask a Christian that question.

        I haven’t watched Mr. Krauss’ lecture, but will do so and write here if it raises any points that I can address.

        1. Glen Steen Avatar
          Glen Steen
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          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/01629bfce8530ab727993d148ece0e531ea8eede2c0f89087f57172f756775b9.jpg Thank you for not being offended, that opens the door for discussion.

          I read the Quran creation story at http://www2.nau.edu/~gaud/bio301/content/iscrst.htm It is much different than than the Biblical myth. Allah/God created everything out o the water which is claimed to follow science as science it is claimed that science states life began in water. But science doesn’t say that. Science doesn’t know where or how life started. https://www.livescience.com/1804-greatest-mysteries-life-arise-earth.html

          Here are 7 Theories on the Origin of Life https://www.livescience.com/13363-7-theories-origin-life.html

          My understanding is that Allah is the Islamic word for God. There is only one Abrahamic God. As Abraham was the Father of three Religions, Islam, Christianity & Judaism. It is therefore very confusing that one God would give two versions of creation one to the Jews in about 1200 & 165 BCE & another version to Muhammad in about 900± CE.

          Both renditions are bogus. They do not describe how the universe, Earth, Man & all the life on it.

          Neither the Bible nor the Quran are Science Books.
          The picture below is how the universe was created according to science. This is a theory of how it happened as more observations are made it may change. There are physicists, astrophysicist tying to determine how the universe ends & there several theories about that.

          I don’t understand why there are spaces created when I enter a link. I removed most of them. We’ll see what happens when I post.

          To give the two holy books credibility, the arguments now are that each book follows science. They do not.

          1. Glen Steen Avatar
            Glen Steen
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            Don’t know what happened but there was more to the post.

      2. B17 Avatar
        B17
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        Glenn do you have a vagina instead of a brain in your head?
        You say there is “no evidence” for a creator but evidence for general grievous,the glorft and other cartoon alien races?
        Also evidence for nothing for evolution for fish that grew legs and became monkeys?
        Are you retarded or just an idiot with complexes?
        Nobody has seen nothing create anything.
        No dead chemicals becoming life on their own nothing has been observed like that.
        Oh maby some idiot gorillas spontaneously played with your mother and you were born.
        There is more logical evidence for a creator than for an unstable white hole that created itself for no reason waiting billions and billions of years before and suddenly exploding in nowhere and creating everything.
        TOTAL BULLSHIT.
        Instead of insulting others look at your profile picture dickhead.

        1. Glen Steen Avatar
          Glen Steen
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          What a diatribe.I didn’t insult anyone.I’m not attacking you personally. I am disagreeing with you beliefs. There is no verifiable evidence for your god You show me some verifiable evidence of god’s existence and I’ll go to church with you on Sunday

          You should put a paper bag over your head and breath to get down from your hyperventilation. This is the problem ignorant, (meaning not knowing, not as an insult) Christians don’t understand Evolution & have no idea how it works. Hae you read Darwin’s The Origin of Species? When you have let me know.

        2. Glen Steen Avatar
          Glen Steen
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          Note: Every time I enter a link the program creates a big space. I’m assuming it is for the link to add something when it is posted. lease scroll down when you encounter a space.There are some very large spaces to scroll thru. Sorry about that.

          Now this is my ‘vagina’ talking. It’s obvious from your diatribe you know absolutely nothing about evolution. You’re simply spewing the Christian Bull???? about their ignorance of Evolution such as fish developed legs & walked out of the water.

          Here’s your first lesson in how evolution works: https://askabiologist.asu.edu/plosable/fish-out-water

          A lesson in Common Ancestry that can show that gorilla’s didn’t turn into humans but rather we have a common ancestor with gorillas.Here’s the interactive Tree of Life where you can find your common ancestor with all species on earth, even bacteria. Here’s the Interactive Tree of Life. http://www.evogeneao.com/en/explore/tree-of-life-explorer Here’s how to use the interactive Tree of Life enjoy.????http://www.evogeneao.com/en/learn/tree-of-life

          1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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            The “space” thing, it does that anytime you copy/paste anything. Try to copy/paste somebody’s comment to quote them, and you’ll get 20 spaces between each of your lines, it’s crazily annoying. It’s a very bad bug in disquss I really wish they’d fix it.

            I probably wouldn’t put too much effort trying to convince a christian that evolution is true, I just tried for hours today, and at the end of the day he’s pretty much not even reading my comments just answering christian platitudes and trying to find excuses not to go look at the evidence I’ve pointed out 20 times at this point.

            It’s so tiring interacting with people who do not care if what they believe is true or not. And if you don’t care, then stop acting like you have evidence, then when we try to talk about it or show you where you got it wrong, find excuses to talk about something else. It’s killing me…

          2. Glen Steen Avatar
            Glen Steen
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            Forget the first paragraph. My ‘vagina’ was wrong! ????

    3. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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      « The fact that the Universe exists points to a Creator »

      No, it does not.

      There is as much evidence that the universe had a creator, that there is evidence the universe did not have a creator ( that is, no evidence at all in both cases ). The answer to the question of how the universe came to be, must then for all reasonable people be «I don’t know».

      But you claim to know how the universe was created. What evidence convinced you of this? I’m not asking for « but it’s obvious », clearly it’s not obvious, or I would be convinced.

      Why do you believe the universe has a creator, and why should I believe that too?

      1. Zawar Qayyum Avatar
        Zawar Qayyum
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        One could believe in a Creator based on the above argument, but to you and many people that is doubtful. I would ask that how could so much diversity and complexity come out of nothing, but you would say it would, although we don’t know how, but we might find one day.

        Then I would present the intelligent design argument, and how atheistic science does not explain abiogenesis, or why the solar system is a stable system, or how physics works differently at different scales to give the universe the structure that it has. There has been a lot of writing on both sides of the argument so for some people that is also inconclusive. Stephen Hawking stated (I quote from *one* of his biographies, I don’t remember which one) that if the fundamental particles in nature were not fine-tuned to have the properties that they manifest, none of the observed phenomenon would exist. But as I said, it doesn’t seem to convince a lot of people.

        Also we claim to understand the nature of life by looking at DNA, but DNA is just code (software), and in computational terms you need some sort of a processing machine (hardware) to execute it. Where is the hardware, I asked a computational biologist, and he said that we don’t know, and for the purpose of his subject, we don’t care. So as a computer programmer, I find that strongly evident that what executes DNA to manifest life is a hidden computational strata.

        But as I said, the above arguments don’t convince many people. I have met a lot of people who are unmoved by that, although it convinces me.

        But here is something that no one has an answer to, and that is all the prophesies that were very accurate, and told about multiple events that took place at the same time, so were not at all vague in terms of time or context.

        I wrote an answer on Quora about that, so you can look it up:

        https://www.quora.com/What-proof-exists-in-our-own-galaxy-of-God-as-a-creator/answer/Zawar-Qayyum

        1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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          I had written a very long comment, and it’s nowhere to be found ( just found it on my profile, it’s been tagged as spam ) …

          Ok I found a copy of it in cache:

          Posted it to pastebin so you can actually read it, the url is : pastebin dot com slash PKfXGjh0

          Also just re-posted it as-is above, hopefully this time it gets through the spam filter.

        2. Glen Steen Avatar
          Glen Steen
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          The capacity to blunder slightly is the real marvel of DNA. Without this special attribute, we would still be anaerobic bacteria and there would be no music. Louis Thomas

          1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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            I’m pretty sure some bacteria somewhere would ultimately discover music, it’s not like music is difficult, we just evolved to be overly/exaggeratedly impressed by it 🙂 🙂 🙂 Pretty sure if you talk about this with a microbiologist, they could think of something some bacteria does that’s in lots of ways similar to music. But yes I get the argument, those bacteria, if they have developed something similar to music, definitely have it thanks to the marvel of DNA 🙂

  37. Nick Thomson Avatar
    Nick Thomson
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    I was watching a youtube video about quantum mechanics by a British scientist and at some point he showed a computer animation of some substance changing shape in a 3D space and he called it “nothing”. I thought to myself that was completely wrong and my interest to what that guy had to tell completely dissipated.

    What he showed had shape which means it had space, it was of a certain colour meaning it had mass for light to bounce off and it certainly had time because it was changing its shape. One can’t call that “nothing” especially in such a precise field as quantum mechanics. At least I think it is precise, I am not an expert. If you enter such a massive error into a field everything else that comes after that cannot be right.

    There is no “nothing” in this universe, it is not possible. There can be a true nothing outside of the universe which has no space, which has no energy, has no mass, has no time but is able to create all those things. That’s how it all happened. That’s how all somethings were created.

    Also, AI is a misnomer. A true AI cannot be created. What people are talking about is creating a powerful computational machine that can figure out answers based on a set of predetermined purposes/factors/data/ideas. In other words, a machine can never be able to create an independent purpose. All purposes/ideas that it will ever have will come from its creator or from previous computations that it made based on the purposes that its creator gave it. They will not be independent. Remember chicken and egg?

    Another, even more unsurmountable task would be to make AI aware of being aware. This, my friends, is truly impossible. If you look at any out of the most clever animals you will find that they are not aware of being aware. They act on instincts. Some of them can figure out complex tasks, like crows can solve problems set by humans to get to the food they see. But none of the animals can create a new idea or be aware of being aware.

    I remember watching a documentary about dogs, and whenever they put a dog in front of a mirror the dog was not able to recognize that it was looking at itself. A human baby on the other hand can do that at 1 year old.

    I think animals are much more sophisticated than any machine that humans can create at this point and long into the future.

    My point is AI is no more than a stupid machine and everyone of us who can read this is not a machine and is not a brain (because a brain is a machine). Everyone of us can be aware of being aware. If you need one more clue, we have found the creator.

  38. alicate Avatar
    alicate
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    According to the Big Bang, our universe had a beginning. And it looks like it’s going to have an end. It’s also looking more and more likely that our universe is digital or a mathematical object. The evidence against a creator of our universe would be stronger in my opinion if the age of our universe stretched back to infinity. If we were created, the age of the universe of our creator (if it’s comparable to ours and has a concept like age), unlike ours, may stretch back to infinity. Then there would be no need for the creator to have a creator. I’m not religious, I’m agnostic. But I’m beginning to seriously think it’s likely that our universe was deliberately created.

    1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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      Just because our universe had a beginning, doesn’t mean reality did. It’s very possible there is a multiverse, or a universe-creating *thing* we’ll never be able to investigate or learn anything about. It’s also possible the concept of time has no meaning passed the big-bang. None of this is supporting evidence for a creator, at all.

      Just because we don’t understand it yet, doesn’t mean you are justified involving an agent here.

      Also, there is currently no supporting evidence for the notion the Universe will have an end ( unless you define heat-death as an end, but it’s not the same as time ending ).

      Also, science is not saying the universe is digital or a mathematical object, that’s just something non-scientist pseudo-science gurus say by misinterpreting the actual research, and abusing attempts by the actual scientists at vulgarisation.

      It sounds like you have an issue with the quality of your scientific sources …

      1. alicate Avatar
        alicate
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        “It’s also possible the concept of time has no meaning passed the big-bang.” What did you mean to write?

        Also, I’m glad that nothing you wrote contradicts anything that I wrote.

        What is your background out of interest? Did you study physics at university?

        1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
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          «What did you mean to write?»

          Exactly what I wrote. We do not know if the concept of time even makes sense/applies if to whatever is before/originated the Big Bang.

          Also, I’m glad that nothing you wrote contradicts anything that I wrote

          Well then you’re not paying enough attention: you claimed it’s likely the universe is going to have an end, I pointed out you are wrong ( the current cosmological models predict no end, and heat death ). That’s definitely contradicting you.

          You also say « The evidence against a creator of our universe » which is an extremely obvious attempt at shifting the burden of proof: The one making a claim ( you ) is the one that has to demonstrate that claim through reason and evidence. A creator isn’t a default position that science attempts to disprove, this isn’t how science works. A creator is a claim, that would need evidence to be believed.

          Asking people to prove the opposite of your claim, is at best bad reasonning, and at worst dishonnest.

          1. alicate Avatar
            alicate
            Hide

            “no meaning passed”. This doesn’t make sense. I’m guessing English is not your first language?

            “applies if to whatever”. Ditto.

            “you claimed it’s likely the universe is going to have an end”

            Yes, because heat death is only one of three ultimate fates of the universe according to our current best hypotheses. You can read more about it here (since you’re not a physicist): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe.

            “which is an extremely obvious attempt at shifting the burden of proof” You’re projecting, I did no such thing. Try actually reading what I wrote (though that would be pretty pointless I think, since you’ve twice missed your own grammatical error).

            To spell it out for you again, all I said was that given the hypothesis that there is a creator, the evidence for this hypothesis is strengthened by the fact that the age of our universe doesn’t appear to stretch back to infinity as opposed to having a beginning: it makes it more likely. I never said a creator is the default position. You said I said that, and I did not. It’s weird, it’s like you’re talking to someone else; half of what you’re writing has zero to do with what I said. Perhaps you meant to reply to someone else?

            “Asking people to prove the opposite of your claim”. I didn’t. Again, I don’t think you’re replying to the right person.

            “reasonning” Spelling mistake.

            “dishonnest” Another spelling mistake.

            1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              > “no meaning passed”.

              no meaning past

              > “applies if to whatever”

              just remove the if, copy/paste error

              You claimed it’s likely the universe is going to have an end, however the very link you used, clearly states:

              « There is a strong consensus among cosmologists that the universe is considered “flat” (see Shape of the universe) and will continue to expand forever.[2][3] »

              This is what I’ve been pointing out since the beginning.

              > this hypothesis is strengthened by the fact that the age of our universe
              doesn’t appear to stretch back to infinity as opposed to having a
              beginning: it makes it more likely.

              No it doesn’t. A creator is equally likely no matter if the universe had a beginning or not. We are talking about an omnipotent creator, he’d be equally able to generate an universe with a beginning as he would a universe without it.

              He can create *anything*, including any type of universe, by definition.

              We are talking about things outside of our universe, therefore there is no reason to apply our in-universe logic and notions of time.

              Also, we know the Universe had a beginning, but we have no idea if reality/whatever contains the universe ( if anything does ) had a beginning or not. If we are this lacking in evidence, the correct thing to do is not to jump to a conclusion ( like a Creator ). The correct thing to do is to say «I don’t know», which is what the scientific community says on this subject. That’s the honest answer.

              Additionally, any argument you make for a conscious creator, equally supports a non-conscious universe-creating *thing* ( multiverse etc ). So even if your argument was valid ( it isn’t ), it’d only get you to *something* created the universe, not to *somebody* created the universe. You are jumping to that conclusion with zero evidence for it.

              > You said I said that, and I did not.

              You (incorrectly) tried to put the burden of proof on *disproving* your position ( « The evidence against a creator of our universe » ), which implies your position is the default position, which it isn’t.

            2. alicate Avatar
              alicate
              Hide

              Oh, I see what the problem is here. The problem here is that you’re ascribing to the word “end” your own limited understanding of time (namely, “clock” time). There is no global time coordinate for the Universe – there is no well-defined three-dimensional slice that you can call “the Universe” at any given time. Time is local, not global. Again, your lack of understanding is probably because English is not your first language and also because you’ve never studied physics.

              I also see you’ve continued your one-way conversation with this fabrication of your own mind that has zero to do with anything I’ve actually said. I’m not sure if you’re hallucinating or what, but either way, there’s no point trying to communicate further. For there to be communication you have to actually comprehend the words I’ve written and reply to them as they are, not project them into an irrelevant form shaped by your misguided preconceptions.

            3. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              > Time is local, not global.

              This is *such* bullshit. Science has been working on the shape of the universe for decades. That determines if the universe will *end* or not, it’s what *anyone* with any basic knowledge of physics would mean here. The wikipedia page *outright* contradicts you, you can’t wiggle your way out of that by trying to pretend you were using some exotic definition of “end” or of time.

              The whole “studied physics” and “second language” stuff is also a very obvious attempt at wiggling out of the issue. Both of these are irrelevant to the facts here. If you were correct you’d be able to provide sources, and the one time you attempted to do that, the source outright contradicted you.

              > you’ve continued your one-way conversation

              You’re just not making an effort to get what I’m saying, because you know ultimately that conversation would end up showing you’re wrong. I’m saying something very basic about the burden of proof and the claims you’ve made, it’s really not that complicated, and you’re clearly acting in bad faith here or you’d at least understand *part* of what I’m saying.

              1. You requested evidence *against* a creator
              2. This places the creator as the default position ( where the default position on the existence of *anything* should be not to accept it’s existence until that existence is proven ).

              How is this hard to understand…

            4. alicate Avatar
              alicate
              Hide

              “You requested evidence *against* a creator”

              I did not. That’s you hallucinating, or, I’ll be generous and say English is not your first language.

              Also, whatever meaning you’re attributing to the word “end”, it’s irrelevant to the point I was making, yet it seems to be the thing you’ve focused on the most, perhaps because you know you’re wrong about the other things? Heat death, Big Rip, it really doesn’t matter.

              I think this is beyond you.

            5. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              > «I did not »

              I quote:

              > «The evidence against a creator of our universe would be stronger in my opinion if the age of our universe stretched back to infinity»

              This is clearly putting the burden of proof on disproving a creator, rather than putting it on proving a creator. This is shifting the burden of proof.

              > because you know you’re wrong about the other things?

              Dude, tell me something you think I can’t address, and I will. I’m not addressing every detail, because that’d make the conversation impractical, and because not everything you answer is relevant to the point being argued. You are not addressing all of my points either, so don’t go complain of something you’re doing too.

              I quote:

              « According to the Big Bang, our universe had a beginning. And it looks like it’s going to have an end. »

              The current model ( a flat universe ) doesn’t have an end. You were clearly talking about whether time is infinite or not in each direction. Trying to make it sound as if heat death qualifies as an end in that context, is just plain dishonnest.

              Your whole initial argument was about stretching to infinity. Trying to pretend now that it wasn’t, is just ridiculous.

              > « I think this is beyond you. »

              Yes, let’s dismiss me as a person instead of addressing the actual arguments. Not a transparent attempt at excuse-making/dodging, at all.

              > « It’s not, it’s true according to our current understanding »

              Again a strawman argument. I wasn’t claiming it’s not true, I was claiming it’s *irrelevant* to the situation. Of course it’s easier to answer the strawman than the actual argument, so it’s no surprised you created then answered the strawman.

            6. alicate Avatar
              alicate
              Hide

              “This is clearly putting the burden of proof on disproving a creator, rather than putting it on proving a creator. This is shifting the burden of proof.” No, it’s not. It’s you hallucinating.

              “tell me something you think I can’t address”. Physics and English.

              “The current model ( a flat universe ) doesn’t have an end.” Wrong, it has three. Again, this is projection or deliberate misunderstanding at best on your part, hallucination at worst.

              “Trying to pretend now that it wasn’t, is just ridiculous.” I wasn’t. More hallucination.

              “Yes, let’s dismiss me as a person”. I’m not dismissing you as a person. I’m dismissing you as a non-physicist idiot who can’t speak English.

              “Again a strawman argument.” You said it was bullshit. It’s not, it’s a fact so far as we currently understand things. I’m sorry that you don’t understand. You don’t know what you’re talking about, and unlike you I only look at the words you write. I don’t assume your words mean anything other than what they actually mean. All you seem to do is assume that ordinary English sentences mean something else entirely. Like I said, you can’t communicate and you know nothing about physics, and although this has been a blast, I think everyone is probably stupider for having read what you’ve written instead of reading something more edifying.

            7. Arthur Wolf Avatar
              Hide

              > « No, it’s not. It’s you hallucinating.»

              You seem to like making claims, but to not like backing them up. Mind explaining *how* this isn’t shifting the burden of proof? You keep dodging actually doing that…

              > « Wrong, it has three. »

              I quote: « There is a strong consensus among cosmologists that the universe is considered “flat” (see Shape of the universe) and will continue to expand forever. »

              But I’m the one who’s physics knowledge is lacking. Sure.

            8. alicate Avatar
              alicate
              Hide

              “This is *such* bullshit.” It’s not, it’s true according to our current understanding. You seem like an exceptionally angry, ignorant person, who likes arguing even when he knows nothing about the subject, and worse, enjoys pretending to misunderstand what others have said.

            9. alicate Avatar
              alicate
              Hide

              “So even if your argument was valid”. Again, I never made this argument. Drugs? Hallucinations? Both?

              Also, was should be were. This is called the subjunctive, and everyone should learn how to use it. You’re welcome.

  39. ChildOfGod Avatar
    ChildOfGod
    Hide

    The simplicity of life is found in relationship. If a God exists then surely he would be able to communicate with those he created in some way. A revelatory God who created the emotion of love which lies in subjective consciousness and not the brain. I can be assured that someone loves me once they’ve revealed that love through consciousness.

    A relationship is made when both parties agree. If one party does not agree there can be no relationship.

  40. Arthur Wolf Avatar
    Hide

    All realities in which there is not something, can’t have brains to wonder about it. Realities in which there is something, can have brains to wonder about it. We wonder about it, therefore we are in a reality with something.

    Thus, there is something instead of nothing, because that’s the only circumpstance in which we can wonder about it.

    This is similar to “why is there life on earth, if it’s so rare for that to happen?”. The probability of having life on Earth is actually 100%, as we are here to observe it.

    1. Palebushman Avatar
      Palebushman
      Hide

      Suppression de mon soutien malavisé pour ce que vous représentez vraiment.

      1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
        Hide

        Dude, this is like a basic point of the «why is there something instead of nothing» conversation you’ll see in pretty much any formal debate on this question. There’s nothing special or particularly clever about it, and I didn’t come up with it…

        But sure, use sarcasm to hide the fact you don’t actually have a counter-point, that’s not an obvious attempt at hiding the fact you can’t actually address the argument, at all…

        1. Palebushman Avatar
          Palebushman
          Hide

          Suppression de mon soutien malavisé pour ce que vous représentez vraiment.

          1. Arthur Wolf Avatar
            Hide

            Well, I guess thank you for making it clear to everyone you don’t have an rebuke to the arguments, and have to resort to this childish bullshit to be able to answer *anything*…

            The whole bit you are doing sort of falls flat when one realizes I’m pretty much just presenting a common argument I didn’t come up with.

            But sure, keep pretending like presenting that argument was arrogant. Plenty of other people presenting arguments in this thread, I don’t envy all of the sarcastic comments you have to write for *them* too…

  41. OlioBGMOTI - Bulgaria Avatar
    OlioBGMOTI – Bulgaria
    Hide

    My friends laughed at me when I wanted to talk about this. I’m happy that I am not the only one who is questioning this. Nice article

  42. Abdul Avatar
    Abdul
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    There is the possibility that our brains aren’t advanced enough to entertain such concepts no matter how hard we think. After all, they were designed for survival in the African savanas. Just like you can’t teach a goat to solve integrals no matter how hard you try maybe humans can’t coprehend such abstraction.

  43. Matt Avatar
    Matt
    Hide

    Dear “wait but why”, whoever you are I read you always carefully and this time you need to be even more serious and rigorous with yourself because you have raised one of THE most important questions. I admire you because you raised that question laud.
    The fact itself that there is a question, implies that there is an answer (it’s like nostalgia, I’m sure).

    Now, what if there is an answer? Or someone claiming to have an answer? The worst thing you could do is to imagine that you pretend to know already, based on your experience which has not brought you to an answer, that that answer is wrong. You risk to lose the chance to find THE answer. It is worst than not considering it, because what if it is right? Keep the positive side of the curiosity.
    But you cannot check all answers… there is no time. You can therefore filter the ones which are reasonably claiming it without using your bias, you can start deepening into your tradition and your experience (for real).

    That’s where I really want to propose you a work (or a game changer): if you are interested, remove for real what you think is your position on catholic’s answer. I dare you to be patient and read 3 short and incredible books (part of a Trilogy of a single author) to understand that I am not talking here about religion, but about you. I am talking about a FACT: someone who came on earth to answer YOUR question that you raised and that everybody has. Someone who has not been listened by everybody, but trust me (although you don’t know me, try it: you like to read) and give me a feedback (I read your tweets).

    1. “The religious sense” (it explains even more your question. The starting point)
    2. “At the origin of the Christian claim“ (it explains what has happened but it’s not the starting point. The starting point is your question, then a fact.)
    3. “Why the church“ (it gives you a way left to your freedom)

    Author: Luigi Giussani

    I am reasonably sure (with reason, not with faith) that this will enrich you because it has changed my life. And then we can discuss it by voice.

    Let me know,
    Matt

  44. Ghassan Labban Avatar
    Ghassan Labban
    Hide

    The human brain is hard wired not
    to answere “what if there was nothing” The only way forward to answere this question is to find the native language of the brain and read the brains or other creatures where this is not hard wired.

  45. Rigelleo Avatar
    Rigelleo
    Hide

    What If there is nothing and sonething at the same time but we only see something because nothing is like the zero in X + 0 = X

    1. CorvusCorax Avatar
      CorvusCorax
      Hide

      Good idea, let’s put that into formulas. Adding nothing or taking nothing away doesn’t change anything:
      X + 0 = X
      X – 0 = X
      But you can also destroy things – make nothing from something:
      D(x) = x * 0
      D(X) = 0
      Assume we wanted to undo this with a creation function
      C(D(X)) = X
      Then this would create something from nothing:
      C(0) = X
      Using the reverse of multiplication:
      C(x) = x / 0
      As such
      X = C(D(X)) = X * 0 / 0
      Since we can create and destroy nothing from nothing:

      D(0) = 0 * 0 = 0
      C(D(0)) = 0 * 0 / 0 = 0 / 0 = 0

      We can combine

      X = X * 0/0 = X * 0 = 0 – for all X

      Now the big question here is if
      (x*0) / 0 = x
      is valid to create something from nothing. Mathematicians don’t particularly like dividing by zero.
      But as I argued in my post below, if you follow the causal chain far enough up all the somethings that made something, you eventually get to the top most something which came from nothing. If (x*0) / 0 = x holds for any one x, then it holds for all x, and everything can be generated from nothing.

  46. CorvusCorax Avatar
    CorvusCorax
    Hide

    Why is there something instead of nothing? So you can ask silly questions like that.

    If there was nothing, you could not.

    There is an important note here: If there are indefinitely many nothings for every something, no-one ever witnesses the nothings. So if both nothing and something is possible, only the something can harbour a consciousness to come up with that question. As such the purpose of something is to allow this question to happen. I think, therefore I am. I think, therefore anything and everything can exist.

    Consciousness is proof that there is something.

    Interestingly for you, there is no difference between your personal non-existence non-existence of consciousness, and the whole world’s non-existence. You can only witness the world while conscious. Before and after your existence, the existence of the universe is irrelevant. Similar to the passing of time of Googolplexes of years of nothing at the heat death of the universe until the last black holes have evaporated. This time is meaningless since there won’t be anyone there to wait for it. A single second, 15 billion years before us, or a googolplex of seconds after us – it makes no difference.

    What counts is the now, because we are now, and we are experiencing existence now.

    So, is consciousness then also the answer? A purpose for existence?

    No. If there was intent for this purpose, then there was a prior consciousness. And as such a prior existence.

    It follows that consciousness MUST be self-emerging, because the first consciousness had no prior, as such it self-emerged WITHOUT intent.

    So consciousness can NOT be the answer.

    But if the world happened to become self-emerging without any intent from nothing, then nothing in itself must hold the potential for something. To be specific: Nothing must be an infinite storage space for non-existing information. Existence – which is a form of information – fills this storage space.

    We can prove that. If this wasn’t the case, something could not have emerged from nothing, as such we wouldn’t exist, and you wouldn’t have asked this silly question. As such, nothing always gives birth to something – however unlikely that is to happen.

    At that point, the silliness of the question emerges. Because “why is there something instead of nothing” implicitly assumes that these concepts are two different things that exclude each other.

    This is obviously not the case. If something emerges from nothing, then nothing is the pre-requirement for something – anything to exist. As such as soon you have nothing, this pre-requirement is fulfilled (infinite space for information) and something emerges. And from it emerges consciousness.

    With this, we further proof infinitely many distinct, non-connected universes. Because if ours were the only one, there would be “nothing” instead of all the others, and this already has them potentially emerge.

    This doesn’t necessarily mean we can travel to these universes, they are hypothetical. But by being thinkable and distinct from nothing – because there is a nothing to harbour OUR universe and nothing is fundamental and universal, then they all must exist.

    If you think of our world as a simulation, and the simulation is again within a simulation, one among many etc… then if you go up the chain, you will eventually reach a simulation above which there is only “Nothing”.

    So Nothing is the one unifying universe that harbours all somethings. But it, itself – by definition does not exist, since nothing is the absence of all existence. And as such, infinite potential for existence.

    Q.E.D 🙂

    Now, this actually has interesting implications for personal non-existence. That, too is nothing. And what have we just learned about nothing?

    Consciousness will eventually emerge. It would likely be embedded in another, disconnected universe, so no other assumptions can be made. But there can never be ‘just nothing’ – or we would not exist either.

  47. D Avatar
    D
    Hide

    How can nothing be? How would that even look like?????

  48. Janes Bond Avatar
    Janes Bond
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    Why not?

  49. Yeet Avatar
    Yeet
    Hide

    The lack of something can only be imagined when that thing is there. Cold, from heat; dark, from light. Neither of those actually exist…

  50. Christian Dalsgaard Avatar
    Christian Dalsgaard
    Hide

    It’s a fractal, right. You go smaller and smaller. Eventually you arrive back at the largest scale the multiverse of multiverses. Then u get back to where you started. Nothing and something are 1 in the same

    1. Jeremiah  Avatar
      Jeremiah
      Hide

      I’m going to guess that you have consumed something in your life to give you this perspective? I do agree with you though, ultimately the only thing that can understand what nothing is, is something. Meaning that one cannot exist without the other, in a symbiotic relationship that can be described by a fractal.

    2. Deluxe13  Avatar
      Deluxe13
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      0=1

  51. Chris Avatar
    Chris
    Hide

    This same line of thinking burns me every day

  52. Jeremie Coulombe Avatar
    Jeremie Coulombe
    Hide

    Why ? The answer : For absolutely no reason!

  53. Alli Avatar
    Alli
    Hide

    It’s like trying to think of a new colour, but your mind can’t get past those limits. We were made to stay in this universe and this life, and not meant to think past it. But well, sometimes we do, and it may seem stupid and weird at first. This just popped up in my head, mostly because of depression I was going through and me not wanting to live, but neither die. It led me here, to these thoughts.

  54. Eddy Avatar
    Eddy
    Hide

    The fact that nothing does not exist explains it all. There is no such thing as “zero” or “nothing”. Empty may be the only explanation we have as to “nothingness”, or “it is not there” is a better word. But there must BE and IT for something to NOT exist. Therefore, the SOMETHING can only explain the “NOTHING” we refer to. IF there was ever NOTHING, then something would not exist. To me, the answer is that only SOMETHING always existed and NOTHING isn’t a real thing, just something we comprise when a SOMETHING isn’t there.

  55. Stuart Rumble Avatar
    Stuart Rumble
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    Nothing has to be something to be nothing.

  56. Nicole .O Avatar
    Nicole .O
    Hide

    Well, two things. We can’t imagine Nothing, and we can’t imagine an infinite, no start, no end universe. However, there is a possible answer for something that didn’t exist but now exists because it means something happened or caused it to happen. So the idea of nothing existing is almost impossible to comprehend, but it’s settling because we can assume a cause. On the other hand, not only is the thought of something not having A start or end, irritating and hard to imagine, but the theory insists NOTHING created it. It just was. This idea of infinite space and time is harder to comprehend than the idea that nothing existed at one point because we could find a plausible cause for that. But what’s the cause of an infinite universe? Nothing. What if Nothing is something but we just call it nothing? What if nothing is the cause for an infinite universe? what if an infinite universe is the cause for nothing? It’s kinda silly to think that way because it’s just reversed but what if it’s just that simple. We think we have terms , theories, solutions to problems, truths, answers, equations, laws of physics, math terms, scientific blah blah blah, but what if all this research is just complicating things more and pushing us further from the “truth” of our idea of existence?

    Hmmmm, I still don’t sit well with nothing existing then something causing things to exist because for something to happen to make it exist means something existed. So infinite universe may be our best bet. But then again who are we to say what things mean anyway? We are just humans. We are no different than our fellow creatures living among us.

    Or what if what we are “inside” has different laws because of its relativity? So the idea that something is infinite might just be the “is”. Think of death. When something dies, it’s “physical” form deteriorates and the energy becomes part of this thing we are inside, and restores or regenerates itself. So maybe that’s a “law” Or as I stated above the “is”. We can’t fathom this idea because of relativity. We think our laws are the only laws, but there are ones out there that defy them?

    Bottom line is, we are incapable as of now of seeing the “bigger Picture” relativity theory is convenient because it assumes different sizes. From the smallest particle to the biggest particle. What if the sizes never end? What if it just keeps going and going? When we thought it couldn’t get any bigger? Think again. The bigger picture may never be an answer. What if there is not a bigger picture because we are so tiny compared to a larger particle who also cannot see the bigger picture because there is always something larger in front of it? This idea of sizes can also be infinite on top of the idea of the universe being infinite. What if all the angles and directions are infinite? The way we view our world is completely different compared to what’s “out there”, we think we have answers but maybe we keep getting further and further away? We are trying too hard as people. We assume we are better, smarter, but we are part of this mystery bubble. We are just like trees plants, and the rest of the animal kingdom. If we humbled ourselves I believe we would get our answers instantaneously. Just think about it fellow humans. Peace.

    1. Stew Murray Avatar
      Stew Murray
      Hide

      I really enjoyed reading your reply, we tend to overthink, and maybe the answers are way more simple than we think. Human are such a young species in the grand scheme of the age of the universe, we have many millions of years to progress and learn if we can stay alive long enough. I believe the way everything is in cycles our human race has come and gone many times before and previous cycles of human could have been far more advanced than we think, but we are also in a strange time where we invented this thing called electricity which has lead us to computing and we are now creating machine learning far smarter than we are, if human and so merge and we can become multi planetary add a million years and I’m sure some things we can never understand now will arise. How I would love to be eternal and watch the evolution of mankind over that timeframe. This is where I wish vampires were real????

      1. Stew Murray Avatar
        Stew Murray
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        Edit# if human and AI merge

  57. Hen3ry Avatar
    Hen3ry
    Hide

    I can’t help, but this much I found, courtesy of the webcomic One Over Zero:

    “1/0” is a paradox; in a way that “0/1” is not. Nothing can be divided by zero. If one approaches the formula from the positive side, it would appear that the answer is an infinite positive value. If one approaches the formula from the negative side, the opposite is true. Thus, anything divided by zero is simultaneously positive and negative infinity. “One over Zero” is a paradox in another way too, in a way that transcends mere arithmetic. One is something, and Zero is nothing. The fact that the universe holds something over nothing, that it prefers to exist, rather than not exist, is fundamentally absurd. No being can ever come to deserve its own birth. 1/0 is a cry out against mere logic and efficiency. Stuff exists. All existence, all truth, cannot be ultimately justified: it can only be described, explained, and enjoyed.

    1/0 is illogical. 1/0 is irrational. 1/0 is impossible. 1/0 is transcendentally unfair.

    1/0 is true. Deal with it.

  58. SerengetiLion Avatar
    SerengetiLion
    Hide

    I think we’ll never know why. How can we? Not possible, at all.

  59. ZStat Avatar
    ZStat
    Hide

    Is nothing more probable than something ? In mathematics if we randomly pick a number is 0 more likely than any other number ? If nothing is more likely would that mean a bias exists ?

  60. ARC OF TRANCE Avatar
    ARC OF TRANCE
    Hide

    This question entered my mind and googling the subject lead me to this article at 2:34am … Nonetheless I also say this is ruining me someone help..

    1. Jessica Avatar
      Jessica
      Hide

      Same here!!!

  61. Dennis Bonnette Avatar
    Dennis Bonnette
    Hide

    I have already responded to this question — elsewhere:
    https://strangenotions.com/how-cosmic-existence-reveals-gods-reality/

    >”But in each possible case, the existence of the creator still needs an explanation—why was there an original creator instead of nothing—and to me, any religious explanation inevitably hits the same wall.”

    Of course, you are right: “the creator still needs an explanation.” But an explanation need not mean a cause. Every being requires a sufficient reason. If the reason is extrinsic to it, the reason is called a cause. But logically a thing might be its own reason — in which case it is neither an effect nor does it need a cause. The traditional God of classic theism is said to be his own reason for being, which is possible solely if he nature is to exist, that is, in him, essence and act of existence is identical.

    Mind-boggling, isn’t it? Then, look at the Santa Claus “proof” for God’s existence on the same site linked above, where the concept of God is tested for coherence.

  62. Alessandro Sanna Avatar
    Alessandro Sanna
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    The big question: Why is there something instead of nothing?
    We ask ourselves this question because we notice that the various things are endowed with existence but they are not the existence itself (in classical philosophy we would say: BEing).
    If something X were identified (if it were one) with existence itself (with BEing itself), then it wouldn’t need to be justified. The big question would not apply to X.
    If there were this X, could we imagine without contradictions the existence of others something Y (that is: everything else: you, me, the universe…) that does not identify with BEing and for which the great question arises? Certainly: X would be a necessary condition for the Y to be.
    But what would this X be? Certainly it would not be a god, like that of religions.
    Let’s observe that something Y consists of “information” plus existence.
    X (or BEing) would therefore be an entity that encompasses / integrates all possible “information”, including consciousness (which, by the way, is: “integrated information”).

  63. Siddarth Bhavikatti Avatar
    Siddarth Bhavikatti
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    Thank you for sharing the thought process, and the ultimate question.

    It is important to ‘realize’ who asks the question. When one knows oneself truly/deeply one knows that which can be known.

    Who can know Nothing? Can one realize emptiness? What is existence? What is BEing? Who is BEing?

    The search of the ultimate truth is a sadhana, and the seeker goes through contemplation, experience, realization and ultimately attains the ultimate. Beyond religion and philosophy lies the spiritual path. Science/logic can help to a point, but to reach the absolute, they need to be transcended.

    In the words of my Guruji ‘To know the unknown one has to cross over the known’.

  64. Jaron Avatar
    Jaron
    Hide

    Yea, this is the shit that keeps me up until 4 in the morning. Maybe there is nothing and we don’t exist at all. The idea of nothing is the only thing that we cannot comprehend, so maybe it is what we are made of. The only reason that there is a physical manifestation is that nothing couldn’t comprehend the idea of itself? Fuck me, this is hole that I am way to stuck in right now…

  65. MasterOfTheTiger Avatar
    MasterOfTheTiger
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    Why couldn’t it have simply existed forever? Wouldn’t that solve it logically?

    1. Ziyu Bian Avatar
      Ziyu Bian
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      Then when and how did forever start?

  66. TwoCents Avatar
    TwoCents
    Hide

    I don’t think Joel Achenbach is that far off. Some believe in eternal universe(s) and some believe in an eternal God. Both do not allow for “nothing” to have ever “existed”. Maybe what’s “ruining” you isn’t “something from nothing”. Maybe what keeps you staring at the ceiling for hours in your bed is eternity. Eternity is not something only going forward from this point. Eternity is past, present, and future. It is timeless. If the universe is eternal or universes is eternal or God is eternal then it stands to reason that “nothing” has never existed, ever.

  67. Saraneth Avatar
    Saraneth
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    I found this because a few hours ago this idea entered my head and I just can not shake it. So many places I checked first say “quantum mechanics says there is not such thing as thing. There is always particles coming in and out of existence blah blah blah”.

    Yeah, there is always particles coming in and out of existence… in the universe. Where there is something. Nothing is just that, nothing. So space, no virtual particles, no bubbly vacuum. Nothing.

    I think about there being something but there could just as easily been Nothing. When I focus on that it gives me the chills. Nothing. It seems to be more plausible than something. There should be nothing, yet there is something. Why? Is there something bigger than we will EVER know going on? Something bigger than a God would ever be? But then why would that bigger thing exist? Even if there was a God (don’t believe) why would it exist?

    Ahhh, it just hurts my head. It’s crazy. It’s a question we will never be able to answer. No matter what anyone tells you, it is all a guess.

  68. MariusDejess Avatar
    MariusDejess
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    So, the proper answer to the why kinds of question is to start with the word, because; otherwise the answerer is not effectively
    replying to the question.

    For example, the question, Why are their homes?

    The correct way to answer the question is to start with the word, because; here see as follows below:

    Question: Why are there homes?

    Answer: Because people need them.

    Another question more challenging, like for example as follows below:

    Question: Why is there the universe?

    Answer: Because God made it.

    Wait, wait, “Is there God?”

    Notice, the question “Is there God?” That is an “Is there something?” question.

    The correct way to answer such kinds of questions, of “Is there something?” is to affirm or to deny, that there is something, like as follows below:

    Question: Is there God?
    Answer: Yes, there is God. [ Or ] No, there is no God.

    At this point, an intelligent person will ask the question of a “What is something?” question, and the correct way to answer such kinds of
    questions is to give the definition of the something, like as follows below:

    Question: What is God?
    Answer: God is the creator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

    What do you atheists say?

    And dear readers here, we will go to the question later soon: “Why is there something instead of nothing,” but I will tell you and that
    with using the word, because, at the beginning of the answer, thus as follows below:

    Question: Why is there something instead of nothing?
    Answer: Because there has always been something.

    1. Glen Steen Avatar
      Glen Steen
      Hide

      “Why is there something instead of nothing?” “What do you atheists say?”

      This Atheist says, show me verifiable evidence of the existence of your god. If it’s plausible, I’m with you.

      What is the probability of the Abrahamic god?
      “What is the probability of a cosmic scaled, invisible and intangible being that affects the universe with its actions yet leaves no determinable trace of itself and only deigns to
      communicate with a small tribe of what could charitably be called desert dwelling savages.” via don’t know

      Science has shown that a universe can be created without the need for a deity.

      The Question: Why is there something instead of nothing?
      Your Answer: Because there has always been something.
      Perhaps the something that has always been is the virtual particles popping in and out of existence so fast, we can’t see them. We know the particles are there because empty space weighs something. Can we call the particles god? The particles did create the universe and everything in it. The particles aren’t as personal as your “faith” god in your book of myths. The particles/god doesn’t care about us. We are here by chance. The odds of us being here are astronomically small.

      We may learn a little more about the Big Bang and the expansion of the universe when the James Webb Space Telescope goes up in 2020. We’ll be able to see a billionth of a millionth of a second after expansion started. Able to see what the particle AKA god looked like as it started to expand and figure out what the the particle/god is.

  69. MariusDejess Avatar
    MariusDejess
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    Why is there something instead of nothing?

    First we have to know what kind of an answer is to be given to a why question, otherwise we are talking past each other’s head, and that is not being intelligent.

  70. John Hollingsworth Avatar
    John Hollingsworth
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    Ive been tormented by this since i was a child. Every explanation i have found just kicks the can down the road (turtles all the way down). The only acceptable explanation i can think of is evolution simply hasn’t provided us with the necessary organs to understand it – sort of like a parasite on a mite on a flea trying to comprehend quantum physics. That idea opens up the idea of some higher form of life that DOES have the necessary organs, call it a god or creature running the computer simulation we are in, but I’m not quite sure how that means i need to give money to a particular church or not eat meat on Fridays.

    1. MariusDejess Avatar
      MariusDejess
      Hide

      Let us everyone concerned with the question why there is something instead of nothing, work as to concur on what kind of an answer is demanded by a why question.

      Otherwise we would be talking past each other’s head, and that is not being intelligent.

      Now, what about that I propose the correct way of answering the why question is to start the answer with the word, because.

      Unless one answers the why question by starting with the word, because, he is not replying to the why relevantly at all.

      I will give an example of a why question which is answered I submit correctly, with the first word of the answer, the word, because.

      Question: Why are there homes?
      Answer: Because people need them.

      What do you commenters here say about that?

      1. Saumua Avatar
        Saumua
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        Can you change it to a “How” question in your mind and think about this again, Marius?

  71. xyz Avatar
    xyz
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    this is all brilliant what you wrote. you have expressed my thoughts. my mind is also boggled with this shit

  72. Faith Roberts-Grain Avatar
    Faith Roberts-Grain
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    I have the same problem. I can’t get my head around the concept that anything exists at all rather than, well, just nothing. Nothing meaning absolutely NOTHING. No form, no matter, no energy, no laws. Nothing.

    But then recently I’ve begun to think that my concept of “nothing” and “something” is based on the world
    of form that I live in. I suppose that in order to make sense of the world around me and exist in this world, my physical brain is wired to think and observe in a linear fashion, that is with spacial awareness and a sense of time. So I have a perception of things and no things. A sense of something and nothing. So pondering
    the great question “why does something exist rather than nothing” I’m using my logical linear brain to answer a question that only exists because I have a logical, linear brain.

    Now if there is another dimension at all, and I’ll probably only find that out when I die, It could be that something and nothing just doesn’t exist at all. Now that’s going to be interesting………………

  73. MikeSch Avatar
    MikeSch
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    It is a mind bender — to think of was the start — of everything. The force behind the big bang and maybe the force even before that. But this all leads you to something that is really pretty obvious, although difficult/impossible for us go grasp.

    There is something eternal. Now granted, many say the universe is 10 billion years old — well that seems like of like an eternity to me! But even beyond that we — as finite beings — have a hard time thinking of something that did not have a beginning or an end, like us. Yet it has to be — because something cannot appear out of nothing. And despite much conjecture and hypothesis about the unstable subatomic world — the fact is that — we may not know the cause — but nothing is happening spontaneously in that world. It can’t — all ages have depended on rocks being rocks and not morphing before us in some new form of matter. Subatomic structures may be high curious/hard to explain/impossible to measure completely — but they are not morphing all around us.

    This question is one of many pre-wired questions that are in all of our heads. How we answer them — if we actually try to answer them — will define us as people and be the foundation of the core of our being.

  74. Throwaway28376487236 Avatar
    Throwaway28376487236
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    If we are in a simulation then the simulators can bend our minds so that we think in certain ways. So it could be possible that we are in a simulation and our simulators are just withholding our ability to understand why there is something instead of nothing.

  75. Glen Steen Avatar
    Glen Steen
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    There is a physical world. If there wasn’t. I wouldn’t be responding to you, now would I?

  76. valentina Avatar
    valentina
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    I’ve been ruminating on this for YEARS! Also glad I’m not the only one. Whenever I try to discuss it with someone, most people just say stop, it’s hurting their brains and they can’t think about it. I can’t really get beyond a certain point myself – maybe, as some have suggested here, it’s not really comprehensible with our current frame/lense(s). The only thing I have so far come up with (and it’s not much) is that there has to be something, because if nothing can be observed/thought about, then there must be an observer. Even if I/we/you/them is/am an algorithm somewhere . . .

    1. Glen Steen Avatar
      Glen Steen
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      Depends if your rumination is a philosophical or a scientific one. If it is a philosophical rumination, I can understand your dilemma. Philoso0phers just make stuff up as they go along sometimes using philosophical laws, if you can call them laws as there is no verifiable evidence used to prove the laws. They’re simply made up ‘laws’ as needed to prove a point. Whereas. scientific laws are evidence based. ‘Nothing’ in science has meaning which all scientists know, therefore no ruminating about it…ha!

      1. Saumya Avatar
        Saumya
        Hide

        And how have your scientists answered this question, with their absolute knowledge of what ‘something’ and ‘nothing’ means?

  77. Jacob Edenhofer Avatar
    Jacob Edenhofer
    Hide

    Glad im not the only one having this fucking meltdown for no reason

  78. Wha Avatar
    Wha
    Hide

    “Suppose there were nothing. Then there would be no laws; for laws, after all, are something. If there were no laws, then everything would be permitted. If everything were permitted, then nothing would be forbidden. So if there were nothing, nothing would be forbidden. Thus nothing is self-forbidding.

    Therefore, there must be something. QED.”

    –Jim Holt

  79. Wha Avatar
    Wha
    Hide

    “Suppose there were nothing. Then there would be no laws; for laws, after all, are something. If there were no laws, then everything would be permitted. If everything were permitted, then nothing would be forbidden. So if there were nothing, nothing would be forbidden. Thus nothing is self-forbidding.

    Therefore, there must be something. QED.”

    –Jim Holt

    1. astroflare Avatar
      astroflare
      Hide

      Well, you see, when “Something is forbidden, that means it cannot happen, thats why you gave this answer, however, that law only applies to things that are something, like i said “SOMETHING” is forbidden, but when you say “Nothing”, that doesnt necesarily mean that the same laws apply. Just because when something is forbiden, that means it cant happen, doesnt mean when “nothing is forbiden, it cant happen as well…

      Btw, forbidden just means that it shouldnt be done, not that it CANT be done, so your answer is correct, but could use a little fixing 🙂

      forbidden doesnt mean cant…

  80. Andrew Williams Avatar
    Andrew Williams
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    I ponder this sometimes… and keep it brief. It is too much of a mind fuck to seriously think about.

    It is a wonder that we do not go insane from considering the metaphysical aspects of existence versus non existence. Something in our brains is able to ‘mong out’ and stop us from going into a nihilistic panic. For the most part…

    Am I the only person who is real? How would I know? I might be in the Matrix, or a Star Trek holodeck. Do I finish one life and then have a go at another? When did existence start? Who created the creator? Why is there time instead of no time?

    I am still not insane. Fortunately, we can ask these questions and then stop thinking about it. If we couldn’t, then I think we would go insane.

    Maybe we already are…

    1. cansu Avatar
      cansu
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      existential questions expressed very poetically… congratulations 🙂

  81. Gustavo Artiles Avatar
    Gustavo Artiles
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    The worst time for me to think about this problem is at night, just before I fall asleep. And I always end up terrified. The fundamental problem is that human conventions and habits are inevitably used to pose these question. We are used to seeing that things have dimensional limits. But the same applies to time, things change, evolve and eventually die. So let’s also ask why time exists. The universe may even be infinite in existence as well as time, though this also involves changes. Because as humans we can’t experience those apparent, fundamental, limitless conditions, the questions are truly irrelevant, since we can’t possible answer them.

  82. fuckinhell Avatar
    fuckinhell
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    Don’t you thickos know when ‘he, him, her or the pink elephant’ is taking the piss? Get serious and relax…….

  83. BenDoverUranus Avatar
    BenDoverUranus
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    LOL I think i have an easy answer for this…. THINGS JUST EXIST! That it, for some goddamn reason things exist rather than not existing…. we just have to accept it.

  84. Aqsa Zaheen Avatar
    Aqsa Zaheen
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    There is something definitely because how something can originate from “nothing” as I do believe.Well I can’t know the things that lie beyond me in this multiverse and multidimensional cosmos yet that doesn’t keep me from questioning the unknown because I am something in “something”. I am part of it and I can’t part ways from myself.Believe it or not there are things that we will never know ,for example, consider a giraffe who have black and white vision what is the idea of color for him? He will never know how the universe look with colors.Similarly there are certain snakes who see infrared (in the form of heat) we can never really know what it is likely to be seeing infrared nor can we feel or experience it
    But just because we can’t feel or see a thing doesn’t mean that it don’t exist.That’s why we are humans because we think and understand.We might never know certain things but we are resilient enough to understand and accept the them.Don’t let ego and arrogance to blind you because the path of understanding begins with freeing yourself from your own prison.I am unreligious but I do believe in ALLAH not the one depicted by muslims but the ONE depicted by Islam who is everything.I am everything you are everything we are everything just need to understand.

  85. CSKING Avatar
    CSKING
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    Ah those sweet moments of overwhelming feeling when you realize you and the other 7 Billion people (including the smartest of scientists) don’t even know what the fuck is the thing we’re living in (universe). To add to the pool, we describe anything as ‘real’ (including reality) as something with context to the universe but we don’t have actually any proof whether this is real (hologram theory) or even what the fuck is this thing.

    Even though I always come to the conclusion that it is a thing that is way beyond of what we are capable of understanding in our brain as of now and that knowing that I will not know everything kind of gives me a reason or excuse you say to genuinely enjoy my life (optimistic nihilism), I always find myself going back to those big questions on rather random days only to be devastated from realising I’m getting not on the path to the answer.

    It’s truly a bizzare behavior of our brains.

    1. Glen Steen Avatar
      Glen Steen
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      If we stop asking questions to be answered, we would never progress. We would become a religion as all questions, at least in Abrahamic religions, have the same answer, “God did it!”

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/71e23f88c22b84566ba6805089308f6895488708004c27c62f45940e4a180947.jpg

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b800b154ca6345b1d1ed0ca5087e3e843eaffe7c9b3aa630f1958e1b413ca4cd.jpg

      1. Pareto Avatar
        Pareto
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        Implying that science isn’t fundamentally based on convention. “The only reliable knowledge is empirical knowledge.” If that statement is in fact true, what would the science experiment that proves it look like? What could it look like? It couldn’t look like anything because it can’t exist. No conceivable “empirical observation” can prove the statement that “only empirical observations provide knowledge.” Rather than a fact or a truth it is an article of faith and can only be accorded the status of “fact” or “truth” in a relative sense, i.e., within the context of certain unempirical presuppositions about the nature of reality and humanity’s relation to it. Incidentally, one empirical observation that is borne out consistently in my personal experience is that Science-worshipers are philosophical ignoramuses.

        1. Glen Steen Avatar
          Glen Steen
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          This is why I prefer to be philosophically ignorant. Philosophy is not evidence based, simply making up rules/laws as you need them. As David Glass says in: http://www.saintsandsceptics.org/krauss-hawking-atheism-and-a-lack-of-philosophy/ “As for Krauss, one has to look no further than his claim that the universe came into existence out of nothing without God” That is wrong Krauss said ‘In a Universe from Nothing…’ I’m paraphrasing…”it is PLAUSIBLE to create a universe from nothing, no deity required..” and here it is. ‘A Universe from Nothing…’ lecture for you to watch/learn the comment is near the end. Enjoy- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7FrsuvrU30
          at about 1 hr to 1:03 or :04 Have a look or watch the entire lecture if your not too philosophically arrogant to watch it ..lol. or surprise me and say you’ve watched it before or read the book..

          I’ll admit he does say it came into being without god.. Perhaps the deity who created the universe was one of the Egyptian gods as they were invented long before the Abrahamic god.

          Your Abrahamic god is greedy and arrogant as he’s not willing to share any duties with any other gods. Although he does have his son and the Holy Spirit which he has given some duties. There are also some angels that do much of his murdering (i.e. 1st borns in Egypt, everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah) The only one he did himself was the Flood or was that from the Gilgamesh myths, or both. Does that mean humans upset their god(s) twice and were all wiped out twice, every man woman and child? It does get confusing when looking at all the god myths. Your god and his son seem to be plagiarized from the Egyptian, Greek, Indian gods etc. etc. Then major, major incest occurred by 100 and 300 and 500 year old men and women who brought back the human population.

          There was one angel, Satan who was almost as powerful as god that he kicked out of heaven. Too long a story to discuss here.

          1. SmokewoodBlues Avatar
            SmokewoodBlues
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            He isn’t describing a universe from nothing. He is describing a universe from the laws of physics.
            How did the law of physics come into existence? and Where did that happen?

  86. zenians Avatar
    zenians
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    What if… Just.. what if.. there is higher being than us, and we just.. cannot understand it because we have no capacity? So for me, my religion says that we cannot got the answer of “If God create everything, who create God?” Because simply our mind can’t figure it. Animals like ants, for instance, have no capacity to think like humans. We are humans, we can make and discover things because we have this brain. Ants don’t have enough capacity to know things like what is earth, there are galaxies.. Of course we know a lot because collective information, we have verbal language.

    I’m overwhelmed by those questions, too.

  87. Dubmass Avatar
    Dubmass
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    For me, nothing is just a concept invented to give contrast to something. Why? Because nothing can’t exist. Once it does it becomes something, now defined as less of something than whatever it’s being compared to. It becomes a void that has dimension, but no matter and no light. Once that happens it’s only a matter of “time” before something pops up in the nothing that isn’t really nothing.

    Perhaps nothing is the ultimate entropic state. Which ultimately cannot exist simply because as soon as it does its state changes and it becomes something. Which sort of puts the lie to the universe winding down into a state of ultimate entropy.

    Unless that’s what happened before the Big Bang and the universe is an endless cycle of something becoming nothing only to explode and become something.

  88. Jessop Sutton Avatar
    Jessop Sutton
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    Is there anything so far ‘uncovered’ in the universe that is not spinning, rotating, revolving, gyrating?

  89. Chad Avatar
    Chad
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    If you place an object then move, it is it still there, are we repeating the same life over and over?

  90. nieass1 Avatar
    nieass1
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    I’d also like to mention that this is a seriously important place on the internet, real discussion like this doesn’t often find a place to exist when we’re out and about and distracted, this is a truly amazing discussion and for the people that allow themselves to think independantly this is a huge help, I honestly started to think I was the only one, as silly as that thought is it was really starting to wear me down, thanks guys and good luck

  91. nieass1 Avatar
    nieass1
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    The conclusion I came to on this exact line of questioning was that if you remove time everything makes sense, there’s no proof of a creator so that while possible is a logical leap that doesn’t help, I’ve thought a lot about all this and in my opinion it is possible that time is simply a part of consciousness, but when you realise that everyone is ignoring the big plot hole in the big bang theory it makes it fairly evident, time is truly a paradox, so basically what I gather is that most logically the physical universe is a system/intelligent lifeform that exists independant of time and thus it simply exists and has always existed and it is our perception of time and our fear of death that stops us from seeing it this way, but as far as I’ve seen no human knowledge explains the paradox or even attempts to for that matter

  92. Vincent Avatar
    Vincent
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    I have come to a conclusion
    Nothing matters everyone has theories and everyone wants to know everything but in the end its all useless information

  93. SaiHarsha Avatar
    SaiHarsha
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    I was thinking about this yesterday. my question was, if there was nothing, how come something existed. and some years back, i learned from some video that there are somethings that are beyond human brain. i say myself, let us assume an empty space which is black, but why black? and how smallest of particles were created? we are ants to some big species? can ants see a human? if yes, i didnt know about that, didnt study ants.. ok and so on.. and i end up at nothing.

  94. AnnaQS Avatar
    AnnaQS
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    How about the idea that there isn’t any nothing. And never was. Let’s assume that there was never a state when there was nothing, before the beginning of time or so. Maybe time and space was always and all the balance of energy and mass in the universe was always the same. No beginning ever, nice idea, right?

    1. Priscilla Burns Avatar
      Priscilla Burns
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      But our universe is slowing down, not maintaining speed. If there never was nothing, our universe would be infinite. Which means it wouldn’t be decaying.

  95. Priscilla Burns Avatar
    Priscilla Burns
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    Tim, If it’s any consolation, Martin Heidegger (who may be one of the most brilliant minds our culture has documented the work of) concludes his exploration of this question in his book An Introduction to Metaphysics by naming it the most fundamental question of philosophy, and admitting that it was unfathomable. But, I think that demands we chew on it anyways.

    Metaphysically, even with the validity of the argument of nothing being unstable, the question still is unanswered. We can infer that the universe’s development was one of
    growth and not decay:
    1. The development of our universe from a non-preexistence would be a transition from
    the most simplistic of states (nothing), to an increasingly complex system (our
    universe).
    2. When simple states move to complex states, we call that growth.
    3. Growth mandates energy.
    -Therefore, there MUST be an initial energy (which is a something) to start the whirlwind
    that became everything. But we still don’t know what that something is. I’d even go far enough to say that we may never know. But changing the perspective you assume when thinking about it could pacify some of that existential anxiety.

    I think one of the problems is that we are looking at the world like Descartes, when we have to look at it like St. Augustine.

    Descartes thinks the only way to know the properties of a “something” is first negate its existence and then work backwards proving what parts of it are real, or exist concretely. So, if we are trying to know the origin of the something, we start by looking at the preexisting nothing. My problem with this is that we can’t look at an unfathomable, infinite Nothing that our species never observed and make claims on how it worked or what it’s properties are. It goes against the scientific method, there is literally zero epistemological evidence for the Nothing because it inherently didn’t exist. So how can we ever know it?

    St. Augustine approached this question not by trying to stretch his mind bigger than all of existence (and therefore his own mind), but by starting with what we already have. We make decisions on subjects that aren’t explicit by taking the explicit knowledge we already have, and then applying it.

    Time’s only real existence is right now. The future does not exist, and the past only exists now in our memories. We cannot remember Zero, just like humans cannot remember conception. And there is no one (to our concrete, epistemological, experiential knowledge) bigger than us to tell us how it happened.

    We are left with only one truth: we are. We cannot know which spark started the fire, but we have scars from the flames. This world is in constant motion, it flows and crashes and decays and grows at ever fluctuating speeds. And with all our “concrete knowledge,” we still can’t know it.

    And that is the only answer we have. And it will keep you up at night, it has for as long as our species has dug themselves into existential pits and wallowed on the stone floor, unable to dig any farther. We are finite, therefore our minds are also. We cannot comprehend infinity. My only response to the cleaving stare from the beast of infinite nothing is to lift my eyes and stare back.

  96. Emily Squirrell Avatar
    Emily Squirrell
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    Excellent! I loved this.

    But isn’t nothingness existing all the time? That’s the place from which all something’s emerge, is it not? It is the field of potentiality, as they say. In this way, all the something’s are emergences or variations on the spectrum. Nothingness is as likely as something isn’t it? Is something and nothing happening both at the same time? Are there infinite something’s and nothing’s happening, like parallel universes always existing ad infinitum?

  97. wobster109 Avatar
    wobster109
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    Tim, I totally recommend A Brief History of Time which covers this ropic. Basically, we expect physics to be symmetric in 3 ways.

    1. Charge (C) – If you swapped the signs of all the charges, all the forces should be the same except backwards. For example, if you think of an archetypal magnetic, and you swapped the positive and negative charges, all the magnetic arrows would point the other way, but they would still be the same strength.
    2. Parity (P) – The mirror image of something has the same forces except backwards. So, think of your typical pulley. If you took the mirror reflection and put the anvil on the other side, then the forces you end up with are mirror reflected too.
    3. Time (T) – Going backwards in time has the same physics as going forwards in time. So, imagine your typical ball moving forward. If you know the current speed and direction of the ball, you can calculate where it will be 10 seconds from now. If you cared about where the ball was 10 seconds in the past, you’d use the same rules to calculate that.

    On a big-picture scale, these are all true. But it turns out when we get to very small things at the sub-atomic level, NONE of them are true. In our universe, neutral particles are more likely to decay into matter instead of antimatter. If you reversed all the charges and took the mirror image (both C and P), then neutral particles would form extra antimatter instead.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP_violation#CP_violation_and_the_matter.E2.80.93antimatter_imbalance

  98. Stijn Avatar
    Stijn
    Hide

    “Nothing” can only “not exist”, it can not “exist”. Only things can exist. To exist means to be part of something. Nothing is not part of somehting. To say “nothing exists” would be a paradox. So only something can exist.

    Done.

    New question: Does everything exist? Or are there things that do not exist? 😛

  99. hal9thou001 Avatar
    hal9thou001
    Hide

    Nothin’ from nothin’ leaves nothin’
    You gotta have somethin’ if you wanna be with me

    -Billy Preston

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_DV54ddNHE

  100. Panda Avatar
    Panda
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    It just is. There I solved your nightmare. You can sleep in peace now Tim.

  101. Carlos Ruiz-Vargas Avatar
    Carlos Ruiz-Vargas
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    I hope it’s alright to share a link about a mind-blowing question, that is in a fuzzy way related to the something vs. nothing question (it’s one of the most mysterious “somethings” in this universe that people are trying to wrap their heads around): http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150525-a-black-hole-would-clone-you
    The writer of this piece, Amanda Gefter, is also hilarious.

  102. the psychedelicist Avatar
    the psychedelicist
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    Great explanation on how the question of what, if anything, came before the Big Bang is pointless.

    http://aeon.co/video/philosophy/tim-maudlin-on-the-big-bang/

  103. Rohit Agarwal Avatar
    Rohit Agarwal
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    I don’t think any of the physics theories can explain this since –
    1.This phenomenon of “nothingness” has never been observed
    2. The root of all theories is based on the observation, which means the basic assumption in multiple theories is “We Exist”
    3. Mathematical equations to prove anything is like shooting in the dark
    When it comes to religion, everything is the will of god! I think Hinduism and Buddhism has the best answer – “There is nothing”. Its all Zero. As Lord Buddha said, the more I searched, more I couldn’t find anything. Its Shunya (Zero)

  104. Alocian Edecar Avatar
    Alocian Edecar
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    http://www.hedweb.com/witherall/existence.htm

    Here is what many philosophers, including Heiddegger, the first one I know who wrote about this question, have to say.

  105. Bogdan Ovidiu Gheorghiu Avatar
    Bogdan Ovidiu Gheorghiu
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    Dunno if I’m repeating what someone else might have said here (haven’t read all the comments) but:
    by linguistic definition
    “is” implies “something”.
    Nothing, by the same definition, “isn’t”.
    That might be all there is to it :p

  106. Dylan Scott Avatar
    Dylan Scott
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    The thing about this particular topic is that the constant trail of “why?” continues almost infinitely, and the topic can branch out to many different areas. For example, basic laws of physics seem to be second nature to us. It makes sense to us that every action causes an equal and opposite reaction, or that object in motion tend to stay in motion, or that matter and energy can not be created or destroyed. When we think of these laws, our minds think “of course that’s the way it is, I’m not dumb.” What we do not realize is that it doesn’t ACTUALLY make sense, we just THINK it does because these laws are consistent with what it is we have observed since birth. Humanity has an illusion of understanding the fundamentals of the world around us. This leads me back to my original point of the string of whys attributed with this topic. Why is it really that matter and energy behaves this way? Why is it that matter and energy exist at all? Why does spacetime exist at all? No matter what proposed theory there is to answer these questions, we always will find ourselves asking the exact same question of “why?” And after we figure out an answer, we ask ourselves the same question regarding our previous answer, sticking us in an infinite “why?” loop. With this false understanding loop, our limited brains may never learn the answer to this ultimate question. For now, we can become our own philosophers in an attempt to answer this unanswerable question, or we can simply say that the answer is 42 and live our illusion.

  107. Kannik Avatar
    Hide

    Yeah, that’s a lovely recursive mindbender. Sometimes I muse that be best answer is likely something akin to this: “Why something? … Just ‘cuz!” }:)

  108. Mike Avatar
    Mike
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    I feel like this is one of those questions that goes beyond the capability of the human mind to understand. Our concepts of “something” and “nothing” may be as laughably childish to a higher being as the cavemen who call the sky “ceiling” and the world “a room” in the Wait but Why posts. It’s just the closest our minds can come.

    I mean, this is just one of those subjects where the average Joes sitting out on the patio sipping beer have every bit of authority as the world’s foremost physicists and theorists. We don’t even understand how our own brains work, nor some of the most basic fundamental forces of the universe, so how can we even begin to grasp Ultimate questions like this?

    There’s also this: do you really even want to know? Say the truth was something mind-blowing like that our universe actually is a Matrix-like computer simulation. Would you really want to know that? What would the implications be? Would you want to know about the world of the “true universe” that said simulation resides in? Think we’d even be able to comprehend it beyond vague concepts? What if there was another universe outside that one, too?

    What if even knowing destroyed everything. I don’t know much about quantum physics, but I know our observation seems to change how things in our universe behave. What if “observing” the truths to Ultimate Questions like this changed what we know of as reality in some bizarre way that essential “breaks” everything?

    1. hayley Avatar
      hayley
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      I love this line. “I mean, this is just one of those subjects where the average Joes
      sitting out on the patio sipping beer have every bit of authority as the
      world’s foremost physicists and theorists.”

      1. Carlos Ruiz-Vargas Avatar
        Carlos Ruiz-Vargas
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        It’s a nice line, but I disagree with it. I think a physicist (who might also like sitting out on the patio sipping beer) is on average more aware of how much we don’t know.

      2. David Swanson Avatar
        David Swanson
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        Yeah that’s a great line. There’s only one you — the one reading this — this will never change. Don’t vest authority in anything or anyone external to you, especially not just because they have a bunch of letters next to their name. Take it from me, I’ve made that mistake too many times already…

  109. String userName=new String(); Avatar
    String userName=new String();
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    [Note: This whole post is a giant IIRC. If you’re a physicist and I said something inaccurate or misleading, please tell me.]

    Quantum physics necessitates the existence of a physical universe. I believe it has something to do with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which states that some pairs of related quantities (such as position and momentum) can never be observed with certainty–as the level of certainty of one quantity increases, the other MUST decrease proportionally. There is a fundamental uncertainty in the exact values of things in the Universe. Given the math behind quantum physics, it’s possible to use this to show that universes must come into existence, created out of nothing but the laws of physics. So the question can be boiled down to: Where did the laws of physics come from?

    The answer to that may be symmetry. One type of symmetry is called the principle of covariance. This states there is no “special” reference frame; they are all the same. That is, the laws of physics are exactly the same no matter where you are, how fast you’re moving, accelerating, spinning, etc. Given this symmetry and a few others, many laws of physics can be derived. So where do the symmetries come from? Another symmetry, called CPT symmetry, has been mathematically proven to hold true for all physical phenomenon. So where does all of this leave us?

    The ultimate goal is for there to be a Theory of Everything that explains every force, particle, etc. in the universe (and perhaps beyond). This Theory will state exactly how the universe came into existnce, arising out of these laws of nature. The theory will ideally be a mathematical necessity of symmetries such as the principle of covariance. These symmetries, meanwhile, will be a mathematical necessity.

    So why is there something instead of nothing? If we ever discover a satisfactory Theory of Everything, the answer will be, quite simply: Math.

  110. Aleks Avatar
    Aleks
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    Thank you so much for bringing back all the mental anguish from my teenage years. This is the one mental exercise that gave me sleepless hours, headaches, and panic attacks. The answers below are wonderful and inspiring.

  111. Alex Binz Avatar
    Alex Binz
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    As much as I hate to send you down this particular rabbit-trail, I think you really should check out the writings of Thomas Aquinas, particularly the Summa Theologica.

    You wrote that “Religious people have a quick answer” — namely, a bunch of scenarios “that would all entail us having a creator. But in each possible case, the existence of the creator still needs an explanation….” I think this fundamentally misunderstands what Aquinas (and most historical Christian theology) tried to accomplish. To be fair, it is a pretty common misconception.

    Aquinas started with the notion of *contingency* — that is, the things we see and observe around us are not logically and philosophically necessary, in every meaning of the world and every iteration of the universe. It is entirely possible to conceive of a universe in which the dust mite near my computer screen did not exist. It is equally possible to conceive of a universe where my screen does not exist, or I do not exist, or… (etc.)

    Aquinas’ argument is fairly involved, but it boils down to the realization that if everything around us is contingent, then there exists a point in time, space, or logical metareality in which every one of those contingent things was *not* present simultaneously — in other words, if I can conceive of a world in which any particular pieces of matter don’t exist, I can conceive of a world in which all of them don’t exist.

    This, ultimately, led Aquinas to the conclusion that if all that existed were contingent things, then at some point everything contingent would have the ‘no’ switch flipped, and that is a hole out of which nothing could arise. The fact that things *do* exist, therefore, entails that there exists something non-contingent — in other words, something that exists *necessarily*. The remainder of Aquinas’ argument lies in describing and defining and detailing in almost painful precision what exactly that “necessary entity” was. Spoiler: he called it God.

    But this is different than positing an argument where a gap in our understanding exists and filling it in with a big supernatural ‘whatever’. This is arguing from logic that if P is unsufficient to explain a thing, then we must identify something ~P to do so. The other aspects of Aquinas’ theology are derived from this or from other foundations, but he is not inserting a pre-understood concept of ‘God’ into a gap, but deriving the very existence and essence of a thing called God from the shape and contours of the gap.

  112. Richard Wright Avatar
    Richard Wright
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    The question is not “why is there a physical world?” That’s the wrong question. There simply IS a physical world. Big Bang theory aside, I think that an infinite “something” is eternal. There is not, nor can there ever be, nor has there ever been “nothing.”

  113. Pierre Pariente Avatar
    Pierre Pariente
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    About nothingness: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nothingness/#WhyTheSomRatThaNot

  114. Augusto Shearer Avatar
    Augusto Shearer
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    I believe that what Achenbach means is not that there have to be a physical world, but that there is, and “Nothing” is something impossible we only can dream about from our physical world (something).

  115. tyron hamilton Avatar
    tyron hamilton
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    It all a lie and we live in the Matrix! lol

  116. Everything is absurd Avatar
    Everything is absurd
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    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus

  117. Daniel Schiavini Avatar

    The quantum physics explanation hits the same wall as the religious
    explanation: Why is there quantum physics on the first place?

    1. tyron hamilton Avatar
      tyron hamilton
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      even small things are something.

  118. Zach Manta Avatar
    Zach Manta
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    Ahh! Geeking out over here cuz I’ve thought about this a good bit and made a whole website explaining what I think is the best framework for understanding this kind of thing. In short, simply because something is better than nothing and the whole universe is the coolest something that could possibly be. Here’s the site: http://zach.fadn303.net/themodel/index.html

  119. Kenneth Mui Avatar
    Kenneth Mui
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    I think that you can use logic to prove that nothingness can never exist.

    1) Nothingness cannot act.
    2) Prevention is an action.
    3) Nothingness cannot prevent Something to happen spontaneously without reason. (Double negative makes a positive)

    Nothingness cannot create, it cannot not create either, which implies that something always exists no matter how random it is, because “What’s to stop something from happening?”

  120. Writer Avatar
    Writer
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    I believe nothingness equates to consciousness, something that cannot be processed by words or thoughts, but rather just exists as is.

  121. Luis Dominguez Avatar
    Luis Dominguez
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    So, if nothingness is not a valid concept, what was there BEFORE the Big Bang?

    1. Daniel VP Avatar
      Daniel VP
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      Frustratingly enough, that is not even a valid question, since time was created at the big bang, so there is no “before the big bang”.

      1. sleepinlight Avatar
        sleepinlight
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        But…there was a point when the Big Bang had not yet occurred, right? So if there was a *before* the Big Bang, then there was time before it.

        1. Kingfisher12 Avatar
          Kingfisher12
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          It’s a fuzzy concept. The concept of “before the big bang” is the concept of ‘north of the north pole’. At any singularity, like the big bang, the reference system itself breaks down, so it isn’t a question with an answer.

          We could reasonably ask what is beyond the big bang. In the north pole analogy if you keep going north you eventually end up facing south. For all we know time makes a U-turn at the big bang singularity, but there is no way to find out (so far).

          1. Citizen_Arrahed Avatar

            In regard to the Big Bang, you might take other dimensions besides the 5 we perceive into account.

    2. Hen3ry Avatar
      Hen3ry
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      If a function is defined on the positive numbers and you ask about its value at a negative point, the question cannot be mathematically formal.

    3. CorvusCorax Avatar
      CorvusCorax
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      This becomes a bit more clear if you assume this universum is a kind of simulation running on some kind of super-computer. it doesn’t matter if that is the case or not, it just helps getting your head around the concept. the simulation starts with the big bang. anything before it was never simulated, so it does not exist. the big bang is the start-condition, everything else follows from it.

      now the question is not what was “before” the big bang, (there is no “before”) the question is – what caused our universe to exist – including time. if its a simulation, it must run on some sort of computer. that implies there is another universe somewhere, where this computer is located.

      which brings us to the question – how did THAT universe start, and you are literally back to square one.

      I argue, if you follow that chain all the way up, you invariantly get to some sort of universe that can simulate (create) other universes but has no parent itself – as thus it came to being spontaneously out of nothing.

      but if we know that a universe can come to be out of nothing spontaneously, we don’t need the chain of simulating universes anymore, we might as well assume the big bang happened out of nothing spontaneously.

      there was nothing, and because of that, something came into existence.

  122. Ali Eftekhari Milani Avatar
    Ali Eftekhari Milani
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    Looking for a context for something to happen in, can go on forever or it can stop somewhere. We live on Earth that is in Solar System. That itself is in Milky Way Galaxy which is part of the observable universe. The observable universe exists in a context called space-time. So, what next? Space-time itself can exist in another context. So, are we satisfied now? I don’t think so. Either it can go on forever, or we have to stop somewhere. I don’t know why, but the first one seems to be more logical. Maybe because we cannot fathom the idea that something is the only thing there is, ever.

  123. Niall McCaffrey Avatar
    Niall McCaffrey
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    Worth a read: http://www.amazon.com/The-Book-Nothing-Vacuums-Universe/dp/0375726098

  124. Harel Thapro Yee Avatar
    Harel Thapro Yee
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    If you believe that there are more ways to equate a circle other than using pi, then there’s probably a god out there. Why do we spend so much time and energy thinking about these philosophical questions when really, there is no meaning to find in “something-ness” or “nothingness” because these questions don’t even exist! I believe that we are acutely limited by what we can experience so I’m not going to wring my brain for an answer.

  125. Mother Ruth Avatar
    Mother Ruth
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    I think it’s all a joke you’re pulling on yourself. At some point — maybe after death, or after thousands of deaths, or in the last moment of this one life, which it turns out is really the only one you had even though you also had thousands — you get the punch line, or a curtain is lifted, and you see how you were messed with. It’s hilarious, but at the same time you’re laughing — you’re also halfway mad at yourself yelling “hey, that’s not funny — someone could have been hurt!” Also note: The first sentence of this paragraph could be “we’re pulling on ourselves,” or “God’s pulling on himself” — in the end, it’s all just Consciousness being beautiful and funny. Why? Because it’s just too classic to resist. We shake our heads and say “good one” and then we nod off and are immediately back in the middle of something that is just completely mind-bogglingly crazy until the next time which never happens/has always been/was the same as the last time. And so on.

    1. Psychedelicist Avatar
      Psychedelicist
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      Wow. Excellently put. I subscribe to the same view. Totally. 🙂

  126. Luisa Avatar
    Luisa
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    I get the “nothing” doesn’t exist argument. There isn’t a “nothing”. Anywhere. Outside the universe there is vacuum. It’s not nothing. It relates to the “something” the universe is, therefore it’s something itself.
    Is like hot X cold or light X darkness. There isn’t cold or darkness, there is only heat and light. So there’s something, but there isn’t nothing.

    1. Daniel Reaney Avatar
      Daniel Reaney
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      ‘Nothing’ is devoid of anything.

      For things to exist, ‘nothing’ must also exist to enable the things to be distinguishable from one another.

      I agree that ‘nothing’ only exists in the sense that it relates to ‘something’ but surely that only reaffirms the necessity for ‘nothing’.

      1. Luisa Avatar
        Luisa
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        No, I don’t think there has to be “nothing” for “something” to exist.
        There doesn’t have to be coldness for heat to exist, heat just is. It is in itsellf. That’s how I feel of something. There is something.

        If there is, there is something.

        Something is in itself. We call the other nothing, because we like opposites, but the other doesn’t exist.

        As to why there is “something”, I guess it’s because of us. And everything else, planets, stars, matter, anti-matter, energy. If it weren’t for everything, then there wouldn’t be something.
        There has to be something, otherwise it doesn’t exist.

        It only exists when there’s something.

        1. David Swanson Avatar
          David Swanson
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          There comes a point I don’t feel myself developing any further by discussing nothing with others, using the limitations of language. At this point all you have to go on is your sense experience, which is prior to your inner monologue. In my sense experience I am an infinitely transparent and open glass orb filled with the world, which includes a chest, arms and legs stretching down and away from the center. And who is it that sees all this? I’ll give you a hint, it starts with N

    2. hayley Avatar
      hayley
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      It’s as mind boggling as a blind person saying they don’t see black–they see nothing.

  127. qwerty Avatar
    qwerty
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    Well if there was nothing you wouldn’t be set up this website, I wouldn’t be able to post, and universe would be extremely boring quantum foam.

    1. girly freak Avatar
      girly freak
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      The question is not if there was nothing. The question is WHY there is something instead of nothing.

  128. Kingfisher12 Avatar
    Kingfisher12
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    I’ve settled on Achenbach’s reasoning myself, that the very concept of absolute nothing is nonsense.

    There are two sorts of nonsense – there is the absurd; concepts devoid of meaning. And there is true nonsense – concepts that are simply invalid.

    The absurd sort of nonsense is everywhere, as life is full of contradictions and random events that might as well not be, as be. When we consider the concept of ‘something instead of nothing’ this is merely absurd.

    But the concept of absolute nothingness is a special sort of nonsense, where the concept itself simply is not.

    The best example I can think of is to ask ‘why is 3 not the same as 4?’ It is an invalid nonsense because 3 and 4 are different because they are different, and there isn’t any other way to explain that.

  129. David Olsen Avatar
    David Olsen
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    First, I think we need to define what “nothing” even means. It’s not obvious and I think a lot of confusion arises when we talk about “nothing” if my meaning differs from yours. So, may I present some basic levels of nothing where each subsequent level strips away even more until you are truly left with absolutely nothing.

    Level 1: No Visible Objects
    Level 2: No Matter
    Level 3: No Matter-Energy
    Level 4: No Matter-Energy Permanently
    Level 5: No Space Time
    Level 6: No Laws of Physics
    Level 7: No God No Consciousness
    Level 8: No Abstract Objects
    Level 9: No Possibilities

    Try as I might, I can’t strip reality down to level 9, due to my sheer existence. The scenario is too absurd and meaningless to contemplate.

    1. Kingfisher12 Avatar
      Kingfisher12
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      Personally I find Level 3 absurd, by the time you reach 9 it is plain nonsense (there is a difference).

      1. David Olsen Avatar
        David Olsen
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        I can visualize level 3 by just imagining a vast emptiness. Level 5, however, really strains my imagination, but can essentially be described by physical equations (this is essentially the nothing cosmologists describe before the big bang, but even their nothing stops there).

        1. Kingfisher12 Avatar
          Kingfisher12
          Hide

          I agree with that. Up to level 5 the nothingness is at least conceivable and describable. But level 3 and above are only conceivable mathematically. At level 3 all meaningful definitions of ‘is’ and ‘nothing’ become mutually exclusive, hence any positive pairing of them is absurd.

    2. David Swanson Avatar
      David Swanson
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      I like this post! It is mind-destroying. For me, only #1 is important here, although I would expand it to include other senses besides vision. Above #1 is all concepts that were hammered into us at some point in the process of conditioning (education). I would say that everything above #1 only seems to exist while you’re thinking about it. Even #2, Matter. If you are seeing matter right now, then you are actually on the level of #1. The concept of matter is just that, a concept.

      Now, is there ever a time when you are not observing visible objects, or otherwise sensing something? When you are in deep sleep, you may say. But you have never experienced deep sleep, have you. All you have experienced is feeling drowsy, closing your eyes, and then.. maybe some dream.. then feeling the pillow again, opening your eyes. Deep sleep (nothing) is no more real to you than any other concept.

  130. Ezo Avatar
    Ezo
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    I see you have gotten exactly as far as I did…

    I don’t think there is even a point pondering it now; we are all too stupid to get any explaination. If it even exist…

    Here’s my pet theory(not in scientific sense, ofc.). It still doesn’t answer the question, unfortunately. But get’s a bit closer:

    Reality is all possible bitstrings. For example: 1, 0, 11, 11101010100101010101,
    111010101010100101010 etc. There is infinite amount of these bitstrings: every
    possible state of every possible length bitstring exists. Why it exists? Maybe
    because it can, and it’s enough? Platonic math?

    What we describe as universe is algorithm, logical progression between these bitstrings. Laws of
    physics. Logical entity. Number of these universes is infinite. Every
    progression between states is possible. Universes could be recursive: wider
    bitstring could contain other bitstring. For example, game. A videogame is an
    embedded universe. It’s set of bitstrings, with some rules governing
    progression between these bitstrings. The same universe exists both within some
    other universe and outside. There is no difference, so, in principle, it’s
    single universe with multiple(infinite) references. When playing some instance
    of GTA V, we’re accessing this universe. It exists independiently of ours.

    Something interesting: after thinking about it, I’ve decided to make a Google search for ‘bitsting universe’ or something. Surprisingly, it’s a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit-string_physics

  131. disqus_HQl9LwTw0e Avatar
    disqus_HQl9LwTw0e
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    A new response just came to my mind. (you check out this minute physics video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrTsvn9usVQ)

    As your image suggests (and loads of people seem to think), our Universe is a bubble of something drifting in nothingness.

    This is tottally not what is going on. The Universe, BY DEFINITION, is the set of everything that exists. That is important because in this definition you take space and time into account. What I mean is: There is no such thing as an universe created out of nothing, or sapce filled with nothing, because there isn’t space “outside” the Universe, and also there is no before, because there was no time !

  132. Marcos Takeshi Honda Avatar
    Marcos Takeshi Honda
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    Anything is the exact opposite of nothing, for nothing to be able to exists even as a concept, it should have an counterpart which was something, the exact moment “nothing” was able to exist as a concept, something was able to manifest itself, there was never a moment when “nothing” was dominant, but when it happened, something ate the whole pie, that’s what I like to think; to make an simple analogy on this way of thinking, just think of how we’d never know how happiness felt like if we never experienced sadness, something was possible just because nothing… wtf!?

    1. Marcos Takeshi Honda Avatar
      Marcos Takeshi Honda
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      I thought it was logical for an perfect and absolute nothingness be dominant, and nothing even the concept of nothing be unable to manifest itself, but then I asked, “Was it possible to such condition happen?”. The answer I got was “No”, it was impossible for such condition to prevail and that was why something happened instead.

  133. Dallien Avatar
    Dallien
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    This question reminds me of a child that asks you a question and when you answers replies “okay, but why?” every time, ultimately there is no way (that I can imagine) of ever giving an answer that cannot be countered with “okay, but why?”

    On non-existence though one thing that always fucks with me is the question “if everything exists within space, what space does space exist within?”

    1. Schroumph Avatar
      Schroumph
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      i think the kid actually says “wait, but why?”

  134. Mary Revery Avatar
    Mary Revery
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    A little research into the number zero, its history and mathematical properties, about equilibrium/ symmetric states, matter and antimatter, about the fact that, in our universe, there is more matter than antimatter (an asymmetric state), and you will obtain a more esoteric understanding of nothing (pun intended).

  135. Willian Sousa Avatar
    Willian Sousa
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    Even nothing IS something (a word, a concept, etc), so there’s that.

    1. David Antonini Avatar
      David Antonini
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      Many hours in highschool spent on this exact idea…

  136. Diego De Vita Avatar
    Diego De Vita
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    it was said for sure in other words somewhere here or elsewhere. .anyway the point is that we use the logic and language to describe this concepts and that’s something that make sense in this world only. Thinking about an outer box (or context) containing the world we live and understand, still relies on logic and that’s “something”. Nothing is the opposite of the spectrum of something.. nothing is actually “something” as long as something exits somewhere. Anyway time, space, something, somewhere, anytime, before, after, ever, never are words that just lose any meaning when abstracting the existence word. And to make it simple, nothing doesn’t make sense when there is only nothing. Because it wouldn’t have any comparing term to describe it as the opposite of something. But if there’s something, it wouldn’t still make any sense.. because nothing cannot exist(!!) by design in a box (as long a box is something!). So what is nothing? a conceptual idea to create the opposite of something. But again we face the old question: what does existence even mean???

  137. Carlos Ruiz-Vargas Avatar
    Carlos Ruiz-Vargas
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    I am going to paraphrase something a physicist recently wrote (I am stealing the metaphor). To answer questions of this magnitude, we are still not able to speak the language (not because we are missing a few words, but because we would need a new grammar).

  138. François P. Avatar
    François P.
    Hide

    We do not even understand what “time” is. The time has been created with our particular universe. Inside this universe, it does not even flow at the same speed everywhere.

    Physicists do not completely understand it, and why does it seem to flow in only one direction. Maybe the flow of time is an illusion created by our brain (like colors: colors are created by our eyes and our brain, while actually they are just different frequencies of the light).

    The notions of “cause” and “consequence” are linked to time. When you see an object or an event, you can ask “where does this come from” or “why does it exist” because you are used to search for chains of causality.
    If there is no time, there cannot be a chain of causes and consequences.

    This obviously does not help answering your question “why is there something instead of nothing”: on the opposite, I try to emphasizes how poorly our brain is equipped to answer this question.
    (Sorry for poor English)

    1. Carlos Ruiz-Vargas Avatar
      Carlos Ruiz-Vargas
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      Agreed. But even though we won’t be able to answer the question, at least not any time soon, people should continue to ask it. It’s kinda awesome that we ask the question (or maybe it’s kinda awesome how there is so much that distracts us most of the time from asking this question?).

      1. François P. Avatar
        François P.
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        Indeed. I used to think that asking this question was useless, because we would hit a wall immediately. We have more clues than the prehistoric men, but still far from enough.

        But actually, just asking and trying to get a grip on the problem generates an interesting discussion!

  139. Niklas Carlsson Avatar
    Niklas Carlsson
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    I really recommend the book Why Does the World Exist? An existential detective story by Jim Holt: http://smile.amazon.com/Why-Does-World-Exist-Existential/dp/0871403595/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1442830671&sr=1-12&keywords=or+why+is+there+something+nothing

    1. Ezo Avatar
      Ezo
      Hide

      But that still don’t explain why concept of energy exists.

      I think that, well, it might be all mathematics. Universe is just a single formula, which starts from nothing and describes it’s behavior from there. It might be just logical construct. In that case, it would kinda explain nothing vs anything dilemma. Mathematics is self contained system, so maybe it doesn’t need to “exist”? As in, it must exist because it’s self contained logical system? I don’t even know how to say what I mean…

  140. Ben Yacobi Avatar
    Ben Yacobi
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    The idea that we’re in an artificial simulation is a disturbing one because if such things CAN exist – even in the distant future – then they almost certainly will exist and in very large numbers. And we wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between reality and the simulation. Therefore the chances that we are in reality rather than a simulation are actually very tiny indeed.

  141. lldemats Avatar
    lldemats
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    Take a happy drop and fuggedaboutit!

  142. Hoda Hefzy Avatar
    Hoda Hefzy
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    sometimes, I think everything is in our brains .. our brains create all the things .. and without it there will be nothing ..maybe we will never understand nothing … anything that our brains can’t see or comprehend will be nothing ..

  143. Lubomír Bureš Avatar
    Lubomír Bureš
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    Well, I believe this is one of the really un-answerable questions (in the scientific sense). It is like if you were living in a constantly lit light-bulb and tried to figure out how the world without light looks like. I know it is a boring thing to say but…how can you figure out something outside of a framework while your own mind has developed *inside* the actual framework? The concept of continuous existence is innately woven in our minds.

  144. Alejandro Rojas Avatar
    Alejandro Rojas
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    When I really freak out is not at the concept of matter never existing, or even unexistence of an space to put things, but what if time never existed on first place. Then this emptyness is worse that eternal, all verbs stop having meaning, It cant’ even “not be” or “never will be something”. Just a static 0-dimentional un-existence state.

  145. Daniel Reaney Avatar
    Daniel Reaney
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    To me, everything is just opposites, ‘nothing’ isn’t even define able without ‘something’. So by definition, you always have to have ‘something’ for ‘nothing’ to be possible. The ‘nothing’ then contains and surrounds the ‘something’ to make it finite.

    I believe everything is a fragment of the same thing, which gives this thing (God, source energy, whatever you want to call it) omniscience. There is no relativity in this state, there is all good and all bad, all sound, all light, it is total awareness and therefore not much fun (due to a lack of relativity). So, this thing, let’s say God, implodes itself into a limited, finite experience, like the human experience that we are enjoying here on Earth. To limit oneself is to create problems and therefore provide relativity and the potential to achieve (the potential for good and happiness is only created when the potential for badness and unhappiness is created as well).

    It frustrates me when people say “if there is a God, how can children be born with aids”. Well because creating a utopia is impossible, if you only have good, you lose the ability to define it. So a universal experience has been created which is governed by laws and provides the experience of fragmented free will. So when our experience ends, we all just return to source energy.

    This existence of ‘something’ is therefore like anything else. You could not have ‘good’ without ‘bad’ or ‘light’ without ‘dark’ and you cannot have ‘nothing’ without ‘something’. There will always be ‘something’ and there will always be ‘nothing’, it’s just the ‘something’ will manifest in an infinite number of ways and it will never stop doing it.

    1. Daniel Reaney Avatar
      Daniel Reaney
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      ‘Nothing’ is conceptual only. Nothing defines the ‘something’ by enabling the something to have parameters or edges. Outside of our universe is ‘nothing’, enabling the universe to exist by giving it an edge. There is only ‘something’ and ‘nothing’, which is distinguished by the observer. Outside of the observer’s ability to detect ‘something’ is ‘nothing’. ‘Nothing’ will never be seen and it will never be felt but ‘nothing’ enables ‘something’ to exist.

      1. David Swanson Avatar
        David Swanson
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        Yes void as a concept is useless, but it is much more than a concept. You can experience nothing, but be forewarned that it doesn’t really feel like anything 😉 I’ll show you how: hold up your hands in front of you and start moving them back on either side of your head. Keep moving them back while still looking straight ahead. Pay special attention to when your hands vanish on the periphery of your field of vision. Your hands just vanished into nothing! And it is not a sharp edge. The more you look at the supposed edge of your field of vision in this manner, the more slippery it becomes. There’s no border! No edge. If you think there is an edge, then do the experiment again and try to observe it. Your hand is there, then it’s not.. and yet I can’t pin down the edge. That is my experience. You try it!

        1. Daniel Reaney Avatar
          Daniel Reaney
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          There is only ‘something’ and ‘nothing’, which is distinguished by the observer.

          Your observational abilities have been impaired by the position of your hands, your hands are not ‘nothing’ when they leave your peripheral vision, you have just lost the ability to see them. At this point when the edge becomes slippery, can you still feel your hands? If you place your attention on your hands, you can feel them, their temperature and the environment around them. So I return to my point, ‘nothing’ cannot be felt and ‘nothing’ is distinguished by the observer. ‘Nothing’ is also indescribable and you can describe your hands.

          I would argue that you are experiencing a phenomena created by the interaction between your hands, light and your visual capabilities, rather than experiencing ‘nothing’.

          1. David Swanson Avatar
            David Swanson
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            Thanks, I can tell you actually did it! I do agree that you cannot experience nothing. I know I said the opposite above! But since nothing cannot be described, as you say, I am bound to contradict myself or otherwise fail to communicate it. It can only be pointed to, which is what this experiment (and many others besides) does.

            The word “orange juice” doesn’t have anything to do with the taste of it, and orange juice certainly doesn’t care what you call it. “Orange juice” is what we use to talk about it in the 3rd person. The taste is what you experience in the 1st person. The point of the experiment is to put the experimenter (you) back into 1st-person mode, so that you’re only going by what you observe directly. Once you’ve been snapped back into the mode of direct observation, you could choose to have a discussion about whether the hand exists. That discussion will only pull you back out into third-person mode, the domain of conditioned thinking. When I pull my hands back, I’m only going by what I see and feel (1st person). When I try to decide if the hand is still there, why then I’m back to deducing, judging, analyzing, debating etc. (3rd person). Learning to draw this distinction in each successive moment has been quite valuable to me in my investigations.

            1. Daniel Reaney Avatar
              Daniel Reaney
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              Interesting, thanks. My head hurts now.

    2. Citizen_Arrahed Avatar

      If you border your “something” with “nothing” it cannot manifest in an infinite number of ways.
      Bordered = Finite

      1. Daniel Reaney Avatar
        Daniel Reaney
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        Your ‘nothing’ is your own ‘nothing’ and has the potential to be different to my own. ‘Nothing’ is that which cannot be assigned a description by the observer. So this universe borders our existence so our ‘nothing’ exists outside of it. This universe could collapse and convert its energy in an infinite number of ways though, creating existence after existence. The energy in this universe has infinite possibility, rather than infinite universes existing at one time.

        Although time does not exist outside of the universe so they are all actually happening, happened, will happen.

        1. Citizen_Arrahed Avatar

          quote”Your ‘nothing’ is your own ‘nothing’ and has the potential TO BE different to my own.” Emphasis mine!
          You state Nothing has the potential TO BE, which is false (IMO).
          Nothing cannot BE, because it isn´t there in the first place 😉

          1. Daniel Reaney Avatar
            Daniel Reaney
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            Haha true! The problem with these conversations is that they just becomes about semantics after a couple of exchanges, you have to contradict yourself to express an opinion. I don’t think I’m expressing anything of value anymore though, maybe there isn’t value in discussing ‘nothing’, maybe there’s nothing to discuss.

            1. Citizen_Arrahed Avatar

              Lol, NP.. In the end, we have nothing to worry about! (which can be read in so many ways 😉

  146. Alejandro Rojas Avatar
    Alejandro Rojas
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    The uneasyness I feel each time I think about this, is similar to what I’ve felt thinking of this other two things:
    – ponder about the paradox “this sentence is false”
    – try to think about “what I’m thinking right now”. The answer to that
    would be “I’m thinking about what I’m thinking right now” But as soon as
    that is true, the answer becomes “I’m thinking about that I’m thinking
    about what I’m thinking right now” and instantly diverges in the head
    and you cannot have a grasp.

    It feels like hitting a wall. I imagine some aliens of higher
    conscience level saying “how cute, the answer to those questions are so
    easy, and look at them struggling with that”

  147. Daniel Avatar
    Daniel
    Hide

    Think of a geometric shape, say a triangle. The triangle defines not just the two dimensional space it occupies but also the inverted space it doesn’t occupy. The same is true for any shape. I’m thinking of nothing as a shape as well and it too defines the anathema which, in this case, is something.
    The question was a source of insomnia for me too and while this answer may be more philosophical then scientific it helped me sleep.

  148. Mr Ryall Avatar
    Mr Ryall
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    Think about the paradox of infinity. Like, really think about it. Not just time or space, but every combination of everything in every pattern in every point in time. The concept itself is even infinite. Maybe we’re just one iteration of this infinite plane. Maybe “nothing” is just another. I don’t see any viable explanation other than infinity to explain us. With every moment, infinite more planes are created, which infinitely branch into infinite branches of their own, infinitely.

    But it also has flaws. Why do things seem to make sense to us? Why isn’t it raining elephants today? Are we just on a pretty boring plane? This leads me to think more in terms of “rules” of a universe. In our case, physics. Maybe, rather than infinite everything there is only an infinite amount of base conditions, and this is our set. Infinite base conditions, would include no base conditions, aka “nothing”.

    1. Alejandro Rojas Avatar
      Alejandro Rojas
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      That wouldn’t be a true nothing, in the sense Tim explains. If that ‘nothing’ is only one plane, then there are more planes, somewhere, so there is something in the ‘cosmos’ anyway. A true nothing implies no other dimentions, no possibilities, none, never, nowhere.

      1. Mr Ryall Avatar
        Mr Ryall
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        Maybe it’s the closest we can ever get to nothing. We could say that a true nothing cannot actually exist as it implies no possibilities ever, and it’s proven by the fact that we live in a possibility. Lots of other posts discuss nothing as a concept created by something, and I think I agree.

  149. Alejandro Rojas Avatar
    Alejandro Rojas
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    I have wonderered exactly the same! For years. I love this guy.
    I think this question cannot be tought/felt by anyone, you have to be a certain philosophical level or state.
    I also share this guy’s terror of not-being, like after dying.

    1. Alejandro Rojas Avatar
      Alejandro Rojas
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      The problem is that the very concept of “something” “nothing” “happening” “time flow” “space” “reality” “context”, are how our puny brains can get along with reality. The uneasyness we feel with this question, arises from the fact that we are looking at a step-4 (or maybe further) question, and we don’t have the ability to even conceibe an answer. Like an ant trying to unserdtand the internet.
      This reminds me of the works of biologist Humberto Maturana, who says (among other things) that all that we know/do, has to be considered from the point of view that is only happening inside a brain, biologically.

      1. tweinstre Avatar
        tweinstre
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        If everything we think,feel,discuss…is only a matter of particles interacting in our brain,we have absolutely no reason to believe any of our theories (including scientific ones) is true.
        Our brains in that case evolved merely to serve us in survival,finding food and reproduction mates,and not to have access to any “objective” truth.
        But be very careful with this.
        Because,in that case,you have every reason to doubt what you just said!
        If you don’t trust your brain,you should also doubt that “we aren’t able to concieve an answer” or “all that we do is happening only inside our brains” and “those concepts are how our puny brains can get along with reality”.
        This is very tricky attitude because it is,in a way,self-refuting.

    2. Alejandro Rojas Avatar
      Alejandro Rojas
      Hide

      The uneasyness I feel each time I think about this, is similar to what I’ve felt thinking of this other two things:
      – ponder about the paradox “this sentence is false”
      – try to think about “what I’m thinking right now”. The answer to that would be “I’m thinking about what I’m thinking right now” But as soon as that is true, the answer becomes “I’m thinking about that I’m thinking about what I’m thinking right now” and instantly diverges in the head and you cannot have a grasp.

      I imagine some aliens of higher conscience level saying “how cute, the answer to those questions are so easy, and look at them struggling with that”

  150. Hamsta Avatar
    Hamsta
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    I love the Idea in Neil Ennis commen, that “”Nothing” has no duration.” but I still think that “why” is the wrong question, as we can see it makes no sense.
    “how” is what we should concentrate on, how can there be something instead of nothing.

  151. James Heffernan Avatar
    James Heffernan
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    Tim, if you have time, and your head monkey allows it, I heartily suggest you take look at this article. It attempts to answer this very question (and I think it succeeds). I know that is a bold claim, and because it has religious tones you may feel leery of trying it, but give it a shot. At worst, you will have something to chew on.
    http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/first-cause.htm

  152. human5197 Avatar
    human5197
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    What is a carrot? What isn’t a carrot?

  153. T Avatar
    T
    Hide

    It is just more likely that there is something instead of nothing. Consider the following options:

    1) There is nothing. No matter, no quantum foam etc. (This could have happened but it didn’t because it wasn’t likely for some reasons that are related to the conditions outside our universe. We exist so there must be something.)

    2) There is something and there is a single universe. (It would have been a huge coincidence that the universe that we live in has conditions that support life.)

    3) There is something and there are multiple universes. (Most of them don’t have conditions that support life. We happen to live in a one of those universes that does support life.)
    This option could be actually divided to different sub-options: 3.1) There are 2 universes … 3.1000000000) There are 1000000001 universes … etc.

    4) There is something and there are are all possible universes. (Maybe this has the same probability as option 2 so it is not very likely.)

    The option 3 has the highest probability and that’s why it was “selected” and there doesn’t have to be any other big reason WHY it happened. HOW quantum foam, strings and other weird stuff outside our universe was formed is another question and it is hard or impossible to answer that because we can’t make observations outside our universe…

  154. Citizen_Arrahed Avatar

    The whole “Truly Nothing” concept is bullshit, even in a multi-verse where every thing that is possible, will exist!
    If there would ever be the possibility for this “Truly without a doubt final NOTHING” to exist, we would not have, had or will ever have, this conversation! (No past, because time is a thing)
    Same goes for those BBC “Scientists”, laws of quantum physics are a THING. In the concept of “Nothing at all” there would be NO Quantum physics.

    Tl:dr We have NOTHING to worry about

  155. Aviv Stern Avatar
    Aviv Stern
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    Nothing is indeed something merely because you can define it. Nothing in that very basic sense could be formulated as such: (nothing = something + anti-something) which leaves a lot of room for stuff to happen while at the same time still allow for this stuff to be nothing. Also, existence and reality could be consequences of absolute mathematical truths that are correct regardless of conditions.

  156. pau Avatar
    pau
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    Why is there something you ask?
    Why would there be nothing?

  157. jc Avatar
    jc
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    i believe the consciousness goes some way to explaining things, not sure how, but the answers to your question i believe lie within (and without ).

    Think about it: The consciousness is the universe’s truly fundamental independent variable.. every thing we use to ask these questions are a function of consciousness , time itself, needs someone/something to count.. science , in all its glory, is a function of peoples consciousness .. without some form of it, there can be no existence , as the word and concept of existence is again a conscious one.. A universe without ever having a consciousness or the possibility of one, cannot exist, if nothing will ever be aware then it will never be.

    Therefore i personally believe the universe is in some way conscious, just not of course in the way we are, i also believe there are many forms of conscious life higher up the scale then us .. if one thinks about it , what really puts at the top of the food chain ? its not our bodies. Its this right now, having these discussions, our consciousness has evolved the greatest in comparison , and he’s highly likely there are beings who have been around a lot longer than us.

    Also we must not forget , we can only see, touch , feel what our brains allow us too, either directly or indirectly via our instruments, there could be whole different planes of existence right in front of us but we simply don’t have the biological hardware yet to see it or feel it.

    so if there was no consciousness anywhere in this universe or any other , then there would be truly nothing , the fact that there is gives us something , i believe its the most intrinsic part of the universe , even more than the 4 forces that we know of.

    lastly: think about this: Which force is consciously allowing me to move my fingers to type my ideas just though will alone, which force is converting the trillions of neuron activity in my brain (or basically ions swapping electrons ) to the thoughts, vision , music, pain, joy, ideas , disappointments etc i feel , hear or see on a daily basis.

    Does anyone think our knowledge of the electromagnetic force , or even the laws of thermodynamics is anywhere close to being sufficient to explain how I’m able to type this message and think about the excellent article posted above???

  158. Neil Ennis Avatar
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    “Nothing” has no duration.
    Everything else has a lifetime ranging from a few nanoseconds to a few billion years.
    If there ever was “Nothing”, it ceased to be nothing a long time ago because it reached its expiry date 🙂
    And no – you can’t concatenate a whole series of nothings – infinity times zero is still zero. This is similar to saying that “nothing” is a logical fallacy. If it did exist, it wouldn’t exist because it had zero duration.

    While you’re tackling hard questions would you please ponder why I am conscious and only experience my view of the universe? Sentient beings have been popping into existence for a long time – how come after such a long time, one of them suddenly feels like “me”? How come no one else has my first-person p.o.v? How come I don’t experience anyone else’s first peron p.o.v? This concept is so hard to wrap one’s head around that it’s also very hard to pose as a question 🙂

    1. Psychedelicist Avatar
      Psychedelicist
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      Thanks for this post. And, actually, thanks for many other posts. Truly great philosophical things going on in here. Also, how do you know that no one else experiences your point of view? What if someone does, but you just haven’t met them yet (don’t ask me how that is possible, but let’s not exclude the possibility). And, as a matter of fact, how do you know that you are not actually experiencing someone else’s point of view, but are just under the illusion that it’s your ‘own’ (again, whatever that may be). The ‘universe’ truly is a very strange and fascinating place, and I think that understanding consciousness will help us to better understand our place in it.

  159. Jonathan Wells Avatar
    Jonathan Wells
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    Joel Achenbach makes sense to me. “Why does there have to be a physical world at all?” There simply is one. When you ask why you are looking for a cause for the something, which would have to be outside the something. Why is that ball rolling across the floor? Because the cat just outside the frame of view hit it with its paw. But with the universe, there is nothing except something. Because there is only something, there is no possibility for anything else to act on this something. If there were anything beyond something, it would seem that there could also be the lack of something, that something could take some of the something away, or there could have been a time when it didn’t exist, but because there isn’t something beyond the something, there can be no nothing, and everything is just part of the big something.

  160. James Nimmons Avatar
    James Nimmons
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    its funny but in every situation..you are everything..not nothing.. we have more than something..we have Everything. If you are a fan of Alan Watts youd think of it this way (and if you arent..look him up on youtube) – the universe has life in it. all life experiences the universe as “I” surrounded by the universe. Its the SAME “I” just using all possible perspectives of looking at itself.. Now think about Quantum mechanics of Electrons..they are basically a field that unites all matter..almost physically.. everything. …I… one I.. the universe is present in every consciousness so much that You and I are the universe together.. we are glowing the stars..and waving the winds..moving the worlds and everything else.. just like we are breathing but unaware of it.. we are using our kidneys and pancreas and liver but are not conscious of it.. when you meet the grumpy neighbor who wants to get short with you about some neighborly problem you can tell yourself… “oh i get it..i see you Brahma old fellow.. pretending to be the angry neighbor…and going a good job of it too! but you cant fool me!”

    1. Michał Kaleniecki Avatar
      Michał Kaleniecki
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      Thank You for writing this excellent post! Very thought provoking

  161. Gabor Olah Avatar
    Gabor Olah
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    Being able to ask the question “Why is there something instead of nothing” requires that we are in a reality where we exist and are able to ask questions. So, the answer is, there is something because of nothing because you asked the question in the first place!

  162. Tomek Avatar
    Tomek
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    You weirdos with your english language. 😉 Talking about nothing and stuff. Where you have to ask yourself few questions to say “there isn’t nothing”. In polish it’s legit grammatic rule, you won’t say “nobody is here”, you will say “nobody isn’t here”, and of course there isn’t possibility to say “there is nothing” and don’t feel uncomfortable about it (I actually wonder if “there isn’t nothing” is for english speaking people so much weird because “there is nothing” or the other form don’t make me feel that something is wrong). There was a time when I thought that this is illogical, double negative, but now I’m pretty sure that you (tea drinkers and democracy providers) are wrong.

  163. Daniel Graham Avatar
    Daniel Graham
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    Nothing can’t exist. It is the opposite of existing.

    1. Rodney Goodall Avatar
      Rodney Goodall
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      If nothing can not exist, how can it be the opposite to existing?

  164. Rodney Goodall Avatar
    Rodney Goodall
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    Time is something – are you sure about that?
    Go dig into the existence of time if you really want to mess with your head.

  165. JT Abate Avatar
    JT Abate
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    While thinking of things to do other than study for my Calculus exam tomorrow I unfortunately decided to check the site, and well yeah, now we’re here… here are a couple thoughts I had to add the conversation.

    Hypothesis: Something can never come from nothing (think in terms of our universe)

    -Even if nothing is “inherently unstable” and will eventually create something, there must exist something within that nothing because something can’t come from nothing (no evidence, just a man’s logic)
    -The situation in which something is added to nothing, is impossible. Because there was something the whole time, just outside of the previous parameters of the situation.

    The more and more and more I think about it, the more I err on the side of nothing not even being possible. Because we are something and no matter how far we widen the parameters (distance, time, reality, dimension) I am still here thinking about this, which is something, Inside of nothing, which actually means there is something….. and not nothing

  166. Esther Kang Avatar
    Esther Kang
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    Because if there was nothing, the question wouldn’t exist. This could send your mind off on another endless tangent. Or we could just accept that there is something, hence the question of why there is.

  167. Jack Frost Avatar
    Jack Frost
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    I believe you nailed it when you said we have no context. I believe the reason is scale.We have no idea how big everything is. It could be a matter of size, time, dimension. Who really knows. A fungal spore, were it sentient, lying under the fake turf of a football stadium, would have no conception of the stadium. Imagine explaining the city in which the stadium sits, let alone the Moon. We are simply far too small to even begin to explore this question.

  168. Mario Hego Avatar
    Mario Hego
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    Amigo:
    There is something AND nothing. They are two angles of the same phenomena.
    Alan talks about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLrMVous0Ac

    Love your blog. Cheers from Mexico 😉

  169. Kyle Nieman Avatar
    Kyle Nieman
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    The only “beings” capable of contemplating the answer to this question necessarily exist in a universe where something exists.

    Who knows? Maybe the amount of stuff that exists in THIS universe is so little close to nothing that a being in a much (much) “fuller” universe would look at ours and conclude we rounded to zero.

    I couldn’t say how little stuff a universe can have and still be “a universe with something”.

  170. Kurt Zoltek Avatar
    Kurt Zoltek
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    I think we can alleviate our stress over this conundrum by choosing to believe that there is an answer to this question -that there has to be. It is okay that we don’t know it. But there is an answer, an explanation, a reason things exist the way they do – however that is. That is the answer we mere humans have to resolve ourselves to live with. But knowing and accepting our limit in that capacity gives us freedom to step outside of the pain of not knowing, out from the pain that this unanswered conundrum can leave in, dare I say, our intellectual souls. But there is an answer out there. If we could comprehend it, we would bask in its absoluteness, and perfection. Even though we don’t know the answer, it’s there. You have to come to a place where you are content with knowing that it’s there, but it’s not our place to know.

    I agree that it is a rite of passage. This article and thread helped free me from the frustration of believing that I can get close to knowing it. Of course, we all know it is fun to float through this existential realm of thought, conjuring up theories and exploring other people’s. There are a lot of solid answers on this thread that show human’s ability to push our logic right up to the boundary of the conundrums of this world, but when it comes down to it, it’s anyone’s guess. I think the best way to get close to this truth is to be in the moment – in our bodies. To imagine ourselves as the atoms and quarks that we are made of. To spiritually embrace ourselves as not part of the universe, but The Universe – in the Alan Watts sense. Seriously. Just, be. Exist. Live in the moment, and savour the gift. Laugh, love, feel the pain, and try to be stronger than it in the end. “Through our eyes, the universe is perceiving itself. Through our ears, the universe is listening to its harmonies. We are the witnesses through which the universe becomes conscious of its glory, of its magnificence.”
    Alan W. Watts

    The power of human thought can not answer the questions we have posed here. It’s funny that our brain can even conceive this ultimate unanswerable question in the first place. Even mathematically, perhaps we can’t know completely, because math is still a construct of the physical world, and yes, quarks – even as small as they are – are still part of our world because we can observe them. I will say, however, that I am jealous of quantum physicists like Witten. To see the universe in perfect math like they do. They get close to the truth -the core – in a way like no other. It must be like seeing a beautiful white light and feeling am absolute awe. Through math they are standing next to the most fundamental understanding we have of this universe, one that transcends all words.

    I am excited about BioNeuroConcious science. That is the next Frontier where humans can reach new lands of understanding. Maybe I will go back to school to study it, and get out of my boring job.

  171. jasvisp Avatar
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    After reading many of the posts this evening I took a break to have dinner and watch a movie. One of the first movies I saw on Netflix was “God’s Not Dead”. After reading the plot, which is the argument for/against creationism, our existence, atheism, Christianity, etc., I decided to give it a go. Those of us who post here and aren’t interested in one-up-man-ship might find this insightful movie to be enlightening and helpful in addressing Tim’s question.

  172. Scott Avatar
    Scott
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    As someone who has failed many times to conceive of the concept of nothing, the only thing I can do is provide an analogy of what happens when I try:

    Picture the concept of nothing as a weird object in the middle of the street. The second my brain stumbled on the topic is when I first saw this object. I wondered what this strange object was, so I walked over to it for a closer look. The closer I get the more bizarre this thing becomes. I am still a safe distance from it but still have no understanding of it. As a creature of curiosity, I go in for a real close look (i.e. think harder about it), and that’s when I feel a punch right in the face that makes me stumble back. Every time I go in for a close look I get punched. And this punch is not entirely figurative; whenever I wonder hard enough on why anything exists at all, my brain does this weird pump-fake/wig-out thing, kind of like it just zoomed in and out really fast (does anyone else get this or just me?). It’s the only topic where this happens. The concept of evolution comes close with just how insane it is that a single cell evolved into a human being via a natural process, but it is a concept I can very much understand and grasp.

    While I have no answers, I will offer different way of thinking about it: Instead of laying awake tormented at the mystery, embrace how awesome it is that it is a mystery. For me, there are two “THE” questions:
    1. How did humans/life get here?
    2. How is anything (matter/space/time) here?

    I am so thankful that I know (most of) the answer to #1 with Darwin’s theory of evolution. And while I am dying to know the answer to #2, I also realize that there is value in remaining curious about things that are still a mystery. So instead of thinking of it as torment, I’ll enjoy these punches to the face while I still can, because if some scientist comes along and figures it all out (just like Darwin did for question 1), I know some part of me will miss them.

    1. Kurt Zoltek Avatar
      Kurt Zoltek
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      I get the punch thing.

    2. Alejandro Rojas Avatar
      Alejandro Rojas
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      Yea me too, Also when thinking about some paradoxes or infinity.

  173. Roger Avatar
    Roger
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    The physicists’ explanation of nothing being unstable assumes that the laws of quantum physics exist and they cause the nothing to be unstable. In other words, they have no clue either as to why something is here instead of the classical, absolute nothing. Neither do the academic philosophers.

    Here’s my answer to the question “Why is there something rather than
    nothing?” Others, like science writer Amanda Gefter (1) have suggested
    that the seeming insolubility of this question is based not on the
    question itself being insoluble but instead on a flawed assumption. I
    agree and propose the following. Traditionally, when we imagine getting
    rid of all existent entities including matter, energy, fields, forces,
    space/volume, time, abstract concepts, laws or constructs of physics and
    math as well as minds to consider this supposed lack of all, we think
    what is left is the lack of all existent entities, or “nothing”. This
    is the “nothing” we often think of in the question “Why is there
    something rather than nothing?”. But, I suggest that this situation,
    the supposed lack of all existent entities, is itself an existent
    entity. That is, it is a “something”. This means that the original
    question, “Why is there something rather than nothing?”, is based on a
    false distinction between “something” and “nothing”. It also means that
    because even “nothing” is a “something”, then “something” is necessary
    or non-contingent. Two arguments supporting the claim that “nothing”
    is actually a “something” as well as a mechanism for how this could be
    are presented below.

    Two arguments for how the supposed lack of all is itself an existent entity, or a “something”, are as follows.

    1. Consider the question “Why is there something rather than nothing?”. Two choices for addressing this question are:

    A. “Something” has always been here.

    B. “Something” has not always been here.

    Choice A is possible but does not explain anything. Therefore, choice B is the
    only choice with any explanatory power. So, let’s explore this choice
    to see where it leads. With choice B, if “something” has not always been
    here, then “nothing” must have been here before it. By “nothing”, I
    mean the same supposed “absolute lack-of-all” (no energy, matter,
    volume, space, time, thoughts, concepts, mathematical truths, etc., and
    no minds to consider this complete “lack-of-all”) described above. In
    this “absolute nothing”, there would be no mechanism present to change
    this “nothingness” into the “something” that is here now. Because we can
    see that “something” is here now, the only possible choice then is that
    “nothing” and “something” are one and the same thing. This is logically
    required if we go with choice B.

    2. I think that a thing exists if it’s a grouping defining what is
    contained within (e.g., the surface of a book, the definition of what
    elements are contained in a set, the mental/neural construct called the
    concept of love defines what other mental constructs are contained in
    it, etc.). The grouping is equivalent to an edge or boundary that gives
    substance and existence to the thing. Try to imagine a book without a
    surface defining what is contained within. By this, if there is a
    grouping defining what is contained within, this grouping is an existent
    entity. Now, applying this to the question “Why is there something
    rather than nothing?”, if we consider what we’ve traditionally thought
    of as “the absolute lack-of-all” (no energy, matter, volume, space,
    time, thoughts, concepts, mathematical truths, etc.; and no minds to
    think about this “absolute lack-of-all”), and not our mind’s conception
    of “the absolute lack-of-all”, this “absolute lack-of-all” would be the
    entirety, or whole amount, of all that is present. That’s it; that’s
    everything; there’s nothing else; it would be everything that is
    present. It is the all. An entirety, whole amount or an “all” is a
    grouping defining what is contained within and is therefore a surface,
    an edge and an existent entity. In other words, because the absolute
    lack-of-all is the entirety of all that is present, it functions as both
    what is contained within and the grouping defining what is contained
    within. It defines itself and is, therefore, the beginning point in the
    chain of being able to define existent entities in terms of other
    existent entities. The grouping/edge of the absolute lack-of-all is not
    some separate thing; it is just the “entirety”, “the all” relationship,
    inherent in this absolute lack-of-all, that defines what is contained
    within.

    Three notes on visualizing and talking about “non-existence” are 1.)
    It’s very easy to confuse the mind’s conception of “non-existence” with
    “non-existence” itself, in which neither the mind nor anything else is
    present. Because our minds exist, our mind’s conception of
    “non-existence” is dependent on existence; that is, we must define
    “non-existence” as the lack of existence (this is why, to the mind,
    non-existence just looks like nothing at all). But, “non-existence”
    itself, and not our mind’s conception of “non-existence”, does not have
    this requirement; it is independent of our mind, and of existence, and
    of being defined as the lack of existence. “Non-existence” is on its
    own and, on its own, completely describes the entirety of what is there
    and is thus an existent entity; 2.) It’s very difficult to visualize
    “non-existence” because it entails visualizing, with our mind, what it
    would look like if everything, including the mind, were gone. But, only
    once everything is gone, including the mind, does “non-existence”
    become the all, the entirety of all that is present, and thus an
    existent entity.; and 3.) Some might say that in the above, just by
    using the word “nothing”, I’m reifying, or giving existence to,
    something that’s not there at all. But, this ignores the point about
    our mind’s conception of “nothing” (and therefore the use of the word
    “nothing”) being different than “nothing” itself in which no minds are
    present. It also ignores the fact that in order to even discuss the
    topic, we have have to talk about “nothing” as if it’s a thing. It’s
    okay to do this; our talking about it won’t affect whether or not
    “nothing” itself, and not our mind’s conception of “nothing”, exists.
    That is, we’re not reifying “nothing” itself by talking about it
    because our talking wouldn’t even be there in the case of “nothing”
    itself.

    What is all of this good for? Like all proposed solutions to the
    question “Why is there something rather than nothing?”, I can never
    prove the above hypothesis because I can never actually directly see
    whether the “absolute lack-of-all” is an existent entity, but what I can
    do is to use the above thinking to develop a model of the universe and
    eventually make testable predictions. This assertion is based on the
    thinking that because the hypothesis proposed here is about the most
    fundamental of existent entities, because the universe exists and seems
    to be composed of existent entities, and because physics is the study of
    how the universe works, then the laws of physics and of the universe
    should be derivable from the properties of the fundamental existent
    entity proposed here. I refer to this type of thinking as a
    metaphysics-to-physics approach or philosophical engineering. I believe
    that using this type of thinking, physicists and philosophers would be
    able to make faster progress towards a deeper understanding of the
    universe than by using the more top-down approach they currently use.

    Anyways, that’s my argument. If you’re interested, I’ve got more at my websites at:

    https://sites.google.com/site/whydoesanythingexist/

    (4 page summary)

    https://sites.google.com/site/ralphthewebsite/

    (click
    on 3rd link. This one is longer, has more philosophical stuff and uses
    the ideas to build a very simple model of the universe)

    Thanks for listening!

    1. Gefter, A., Nautulus, 2014, 16; http://nautil.us/issue/16/nothingness/the-bridge-from-nowhere

  174. makeuswait Avatar
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    I remember many sleepless nights as a young girl contemplating nothingness. I would lie awake in bed trying to picture what the universe would look like after earth is gone, just pitch cold darkness, for infinity. It would always send a cold shiver down my spine, and an uncomfortable sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. There is nothing more anxiety provoking than the contemplation of nothingness. I didn’t know what to make of those thoughts, and I’m still now quite sure, but I’m glad I’m not the only one.

    1. Mike Avatar
      Mike
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      As a kid I would have the same sleepness night regarding my own mortality. I think everyone experiences this at some point in their life. I would try to entertain the thought of what death will be like if religion is wrong, and it is as science says: that you just cease to exist. I tried to wrap my mind around what that nothingness would be like, simply not existing any more, forever.

      Yep.. many a sleepless night. Weird how I got older and just ignore the whole thing now. It was a huge deal to Kid-me, but adult-me just shrugs it off now. “I’ll deal with all that later. Much later”

  175. visakh Avatar
    visakh
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    This image keeps coming back to my mind:

    A line of women walking with pots on their head.

    Water doesn’t splosh around on pots that are full and that are empty. So, it’s as if there’s nothing in them.

    In semi full containers, water splosh around giving us an idea there’s something in it.

    Applying the same line of thought. What if this “container” that has our universe in it had some in-equillibrium that made all these events like bigbang (that turned all that energy into mass) and made everything seem to exist?

    Maybe there are other “containers” with as much energy, but with perfect equilibrium, so that it seems there’s nothing in it.

    1. Vogura1720 Avatar
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      holy shit, that’sa pretty good idea. not sure how it fits everything together, and of course it doesn’t answer every question but its definitely getting somewhere

    2. David Swanson Avatar
      David Swanson
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      Feels right to me too. It’s said that when you realize the self, the world vanishes.

  176. Erik Martin Avatar
    Erik Martin
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    The quantum physics explanation is bogus. The whole idea of quantum physics presupposes fields that operate in spacetime according to certain mathematics. Maybe those things lead to spacetime bubbles, but those things aren’t nothing.

  177. Peter Kotenko Avatar
    Peter Kotenko
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    Welcome to DPDR

    1. jonathan Avatar
      jonathan
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      Oh man, I just looked that up. I’ve had it in passing, but to have a chronic disorder sounds like a nightmare.

      1. Peter Kotenko Avatar
        Peter Kotenko
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        The worst part is it doesn’t feel like a disorder, it feels like you just have a new and more accurate perspective on existence and you realize how much of a paradox it actually is where before you just didn’t notice any of it. It’s horrible. What’s worse is if someone asked me if I wanted to go back to how I was before, I would have a hard time accepting. It would feel like willingly going back into the matrix.

        TL;DR: fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

        1. David Swanson Avatar
          David Swanson
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          I’m curious now – what is it about this new and more accurate perspective that is troubling?

          1. Peter Kotenko Avatar
            Peter Kotenko
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            I’ve thought a lot about the best way to explain DPDR to someone, it’s kind of hard because you can’t really understand it without feeling what I feel on some level.. But here’s the best I got

            Think about the weirdest, most bizarre thing you’ve ever witnessed in your life, something you can’t explain. If something like that ever happened to you it probably made you feel pretty uncomfortable. Well, to me, existence and my consciousness is the weirdest, most bizarre thing that’s ever happened to me. I feel extremely uncomfortable in my skin. Some days I can forget about it if I’m distracted but other days I literally think I’m inside some kind of a dream and I’m hallucinating. Some days I truly think that people around me is just my mind imagining them, the same way my mind imagines people when I’m dreaming while also convincing me that they’re real until I wake up.

            TL;DR: Inception IRL

            1. David Swanson Avatar
              David Swanson
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              Thanks for the reply, that’s really interesting to me. It probably isn’t possible for me to understand how you feel, but these days I am sometimes taken by a feeling that I am not here. Like, everything is happening, but there is no reference point, no me. But this doesn’t ever last – I think it doesn’t last because I’m afraid of it lasting. So when I think of that (or something equally bizarre) being lasting and involuntary for you, I can see how it would be very weird and uncomfortable.

              I can’t help but think that you really are seeing things as they are, without much of the distortion that blinds most of us. But then, who is it that is uncomfortable? Can the discomfort be felt physically in the body? I could go on and on with the questions, but this is probably not the place. So yeah, thanks

    2. jasvisp Avatar
      jasvisp
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      Peter, have you heard of AIWS? Alice In Wonderland Syndrome? It’s very hard to explain and the symptoms are varied……some extreme, others not so much, but it’s very rare. Any insight?

      1. Peter Kotenko Avatar
        Peter Kotenko
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        Funny thing I actually have that too, had it since I was a kid. But i don’t think it’s related at all. I get it every couple months and it lasts for about 5 min tops usually when i’m tired and getting ready to sleep. Everything just looks tiny, but I can still do most normal things and my coordination doesn’t suffer too much. It’s just trippy. And as far as I know not life threatening or anything..

  178. Atdhe Shala Avatar
    Atdhe Shala
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    What’s a whole number that lies between two and three? Can you imagine Pi having a different value? Or Euler’s number for that matter? How can we ever wrap our minds around the fact that there are different kinds of infinities? That some are larger than others? In the same way, can we really understand zero?

    We can maybe think up of different universes with different laws and try to represent them somehow, like writing down the rules of a four-dimensional universe (spatial dimensions) even though we cannot wrap our heads around that kind of universe like 2D beings can’t about ours, but we cannot think, imagine or even write down different rules of the basic logic that runs our universe (Math being our best tool for understanding of that logic).

    Nothingness is just a representation of the same unimaginable thing. We cannot imagine what infinity looks like, why should we be able to wrap our heads around nothingness?

    1. Nic Avatar
      Nic
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      Because it exists (can nothing really ‘exist’? question for another time), and that means we feel a need to understand it because that’s what we do? But I agree with you – it’s futile.

      We also can’t imagine a world without time, or a world that wasn’t ’caused’ by something. I bet there are a lot of other questions in this category.

  179. plutoandchamp Avatar
    plutoandchamp
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    Isn’t the problem that we think in opposites, that if there is black there must be white? The universe IS, and that’s all we know. Our understanding of it will become more sophisticated as we continue to evolve. We can either relax and wait for that point, in some future millennium, or decide that the unknowable will always be beyond our grasp. No problem.

  180. Jasieu Avatar
    Jasieu
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    -> Birp

    Is “nothing” really a mental concept? I don’t think so. Here’s why.

    As an example of a mental concept, let’s consider “darkness”, generally defined as the absence of “light”.

    While we can create “light”, we cannot in the same sense create “darkness”. We can only remove “light” and call the result “darkness”, because it is a condition which we can sense, i.e. a mental concept. But there is no flashlight (flashdark?) which creates darkness when you turn it on.

    We can create “something” just as we can create “light”. But we cannot create “nothing” any more than we can create “darkness”: we can only remove “something” and call the result “nothing”.

    The problem is that the absence of “something” really isn’t “nothing”. We may not be able to be aware of what really comprises what we are calling “nothing”, but it’s a safe bet that “nothing” is not the absense of “something”. In other words, “nothing” really is “something”.

    So it would seem that “awareness” is the key, and it would then follow that “something” and “nothing” are not conditions, not mental concepts, as are “light” and “darkness”. The conditions, the mental concepts, are really “awareness” and “unawareness”, with “something” and “nothing” being what our senses can detect within those conditions.

    That means that what we are calling “nothing” is really our “unawareness”. The failure of our senses to detect “something” does not mean that there is “nothing” there.

    😉

    1. Jane Lin Avatar
      Jane Lin
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      On a side note, a flashdark would be so totally cool! I imagine a device shaped vaguely like a flashlight but when you turn it on it sucks all the light from the nearby area of some radius (depending on how powerful the flashdark is).

      Oh wait, J.K. Rowling has already invented that…

      1. Nic Avatar
        Nic
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        There actually is such a thing as a flashdark. You might refer to it as a black hole. But it’s not exactly shaped like a flashlight… 😉

    2. Roman Fedoryshchak Avatar
      Roman Fedoryshchak
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      As much as I agree with the argument, I don’t agree with the conclusion here. You’ve drawn a nice parallel between light and darkness but then followed the logic with the phrase ‘the absence of “something” really isn’t “nothing” ‘. Which to me sounds like a rhetorical twist that confuses the real question about ‘nothing’ with a mental concept of ‘nothing’ that exists in our brains.

      I believe the answer to the question lies beyond our comprehension and here is why: we don’t encounter ‘nothing’ in our lives ever! It is inconceivably hard to imagine ‘nothing’ that has no time, no spacial dimensions and no laws of physics. Nothing is where quantum mechanics, and any other concept such as awareness, does not apply because there there is no space, energy, particles etc. to apply it to.

      Still, I wouldn’t have a slightest idea how something became into existence out of nothing, so only a comment from me – no real answer 😉

  181. Tamas Kalman Avatar
    Tamas Kalman
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    Solipsism was first recorded by the Greek presocratic sophist, Gorgias (c. 483–375 BC) who is quoted by the Roman skeptic Sextus Empiricus as having stated:

    1. Nothing exists.
    2. Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it.
    3. Even if something could be known about it, knowledge about it can’t be communicated to others.

    Much of the point of the Sophists was to show that “objective” knowledge was a literal impossibility.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

  182. JustSayin Avatar
    JustSayin
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    Tim, you’ll get over this. Contemplating the universe and all things related to it is a rite of passage. Maybe I’m too old to be butting in on you youngsters while you mull these things over, but since I can’t resist your posts, I find myself weighing in. When I was a teen (17 in ’65) I once heard that it would take 400 years to learn everything there was to know at that point in time. Made me want to give up. Why bother going to college? That wouldn’t even make a dent in what I didn’t know. But I kept keepin’ on, and when I got to the “something/nothing” point where you are now, it suddenly made sense to just “be”. Now, go get some sleep 😉

    1. jasvisp Avatar
      jasvisp
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      We should never feel we are too old to weigh in on anything. Ageism is the last “ism” which needs to go…..and I am a Conservative.

  183. Natalia Avatar
    Natalia
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    I like to think of death as nothingness. If we finally reach the point in society where we overcome death and prolong life indefinitely, would we still find this question as important?

  184. Bradley Avatar
    Bradley
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    I think the reason this question is so puzzling is because nothing cannot exist without something, and vice versa. In order to be aware of nothing there has to be something, so ultimately it’s just a paradox.

    In my personal opinion religion answers this question the best, there’s a God out there who created things for his enjoyment and because why not? You’re a God. That’s what I think most will probably disagree with the religion side, feel free to reply with your opinions of my opinion!

  185. ScHmo Avatar
    ScHmo
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    sure this has been thought/said before but is something and nothing, or being and not being the only two states of existence? or are there other states we cannot even fathom? what if this big bang, expanding universe and/or multi-verse is the birth – a rapid birth, instantaneous but billions of years to us and it is just a construct to nothingness? but that’s something, isn’t it?
    ok. been sitting here watching the cursor flash for… ten minutes?
    if there is nothing, i would love to experience it. what a massive, free, crushing feeling. but then that would be something. i don’t think we can even imagine anything but something.

  186. Innocent Bystander Avatar
    Innocent Bystander
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    I refuse to post an answer to this question.

  187. Lee Harrison Avatar
    Lee Harrison
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    If there weren’t a physical world, does that mean that there would be nothing? Is there nothing beyond the natural? In the strictest scientific sense, that is an a priori assumption which can neither be proved nor disproved. Your argument that the “religious explanation inevitably hits the same wall” implicitly makes that same assumption, that the “creator” is still somehow within the realm of the natural and therefore falls victim to the same conundrum. Why do we (some of us, anyway) even ponder this question that truly has no bearing or significance on our physical existence or survival in this world? Maybe it a very faint reflection of that world that could be beyond the “natural”.

  188. Josh Avatar
    Josh
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    Saying that nothing is inherently unstable attributes a character to nothingness, turning it into something. So then the unstable nothing is something.

  189. Frank Avatar
    Frank
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    well then.. just smile 🙂

  190. Tom Miller Avatar
    Tom Miller
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    Of course, the “something from nothing” theory (see Larry Kraus – excellent book by the same name) suggests that nothing isn’t really nothing. There is no such thing as nothing – what we think of as nothing (empty space, no gravity, no time, no particles) is actually still “something” (unstable quantum timey wimey stuff). If that’s the case, then nothing is merely a human construct that doesn’t actually exist (except for within mathematics).

    As for “WHY is there something”, again that can be thought of as a human construct. There are answers, but the answers are “how did something come to be”, not really “*why* is there something”.

    It’s a bit like “why are we here?”. That question, when asked by most, would be better phrased “what is the purpose of us being here”. There is an answer for that (we evolved), and you can go backwards and backwards – which is why kids just keep saying “but why?” 🙂 every answers is unsatisfying in the purpose context.

    And purpose suggests design, which is why God and Creationist theory is so appealing to humans.

    Richard Dawkins has a great seminar on this very subject (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT4EWCRfdUg) – “The purpose of purpose”, which is well worth a watch.

  191. Luke Avatar
    Luke
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    I think one of the best answers is offered via the ‘Anthropic Principle’. Simply stated, the principle asserts that in order to observe anything, an observer must exist. This principle comes in lots of shapes and sizes and is discussed a little in Hawking’s “A brief history of time”.

  192. Nic Avatar
    Nic
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    I think one can define ‘God’ as “an entity that the human race is not only incapable of emulating, but also incapable of understanding”. When you look at the universe, there are lots of questions that not only do we not understand, we are *incapable* of ever understanding. “Why is there space?”, “What is time and why are we in it?” and “What is the deepest question about the existence of our universe that humans will ever ask?” are all questions that can never be answered. In particular, we all become 4 year olds with the question “why?” – in some cases, it will always only lead to more questions.

    If God is something humans are incapable of ever understanding, and there are things humans are incapable of understanding, then by that definition, there is a God. It may not be sentient, it may not even have aims, but it must exist. And the answer to all of these questions is “God” (i.e. we do not and will never know).

    1. Scott Avatar
      Scott
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      Are you saying that if we don’t understand something and are never able to understand it, then that thing must exist? That allows us to spontaneously bring things to existence just by our incomprehension of them. I don’t see the validity in that argument.

      1. Nic Avatar
        Nic
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        Not causation, no. My argument is that there *does* exist a set of things that are outside our ability to comprehend (and that God could be defined as that set), not that incomprehension causes existence. The thought that *some* have that correlation does not mean that *all* do.

        1. Scott Avatar
          Scott
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          Ah ok. That makes sense as long as you mean that there is a set of “concepts” that exist outside of our comprehension. The concept of god certainly exists, but that does not mean that God itself does exist, just the concept of him.

          1. Nic Avatar
            Nic
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            So I defined God there as “the set of things outside the realm of human comprehension”. You could also think of it as God = Paradox. Logically then, if something exists that is outside of our ability to comprehend, then that definition of God must exist. So it’s a really weak proof of God because it relies on that definition. By that definition God MUST exist (maybe not logically speaking, but in practical terms, there have to be things out there we are unable to comprehend). But it’s also really easy to say that the definition I proposed isn’t how you think of God. You could just as easily say it’s proof of the existence of paradox, or proof that humans are not smart enough. The point I’m trying to make is that there have to be things that we will never understand – those things may have meaning or they may not. But it’s enough evidence to suggest that you at least can’t prove God *doesn’t* exist.

            And to bring it back to the topic, you can’t prove that “nothing” exists or doesn’t exist either.

            It’s similar to hypothesis testing – something has to be rejectable to be testable. “Nothing” is not confirmable in this sense. It’s like trying to prove that man will always have two feet – you might be able to eventually prove that man *won’t*, by showing that we will evolve to have flippers, say. But you can’t prove that we will always have feet, because there isn’t a test to confirm it won’t change. You can’t confirm nothing actually exists, because maybe everything is something and you just haven’t seen it yet. And when you boil it down, the fundamental questions of the universe will always fail the scientific method, because the really important stuff cannot be tested in that way.

            1. Scott Avatar
              Scott
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              Ok well that makes sense if you define God in that sense, but I think you have to qualify that more clearly since most people don’t define God in that way, and you first defining God as an “entity” threw me off.
              As for not ever being able to understand the really important stuff, I wouldn’t discredit the human race that quickly. There are many things that we have discovered and done that were once written off as impossible and unknowable. We don’t know the extent of our extent, so it’s tough to make hard claims that there are things that we will never know, which by your own logic is not provable. I’m sure many once said the same thing about the explanation of life before Darwin.

            2. Nic Avatar
              Nic
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              Agreed that the human race is suprisingly capable. However, this is a fundamental breakdown in a number of different ways of reasoning. Let’s take two examples:

              (1) Logic – logic requires reasoning based on a set of assumptions, and manipulating those assumptions to “prove” new things (assuming those assumptions are true). However, logic has no way to go “backward” – given assumptions, find the thing those assumptions came from. There’s no way to really trace backwards to an original source of truth.

              (2) Science suffers a similar problem – we can go “forward” by disproving things, but we can never completely “prove” anything. The scientific method just doesn’t allow it.

              One of the first rules of epistemology is that when it comes to what we truly know, the answer is “nothing”. As a race, we have proven completely unable to get to a single source of truth. Does that mean it won’t happen? Not *technically*, but I and many others don’t see how it would. There are just too many rabbit holes that seem to be infinitely deep.

              As far as the definition of “God”, the reason I am defining it that way is that it’s the deciding factor in whether you believe in a God or not. Lots of things are unsolved, and many will probably never be. Is that eternal mysteriousness God? Or is it just something else far beyond our understanding? The answer to that question is the only thing that can really determine your beliefs.

            3. Scott Avatar
              Scott
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              In logic you can work backwards, as in premises of one argument can be conclusions from a previous argument, but yes I accept that you will always run into the infinite regress issue (turtles all the way down…). I also accept that we can never prove anything with 100% certainty, which you go on to say that means we “truly know nothing”. But I really don’t like this jump because it’s not the way we actually live our lives.

              Do I accept that any belief has to have some level of doubt, absolutely. But does that mean that I know nothing?? Only if you say to “know” something is to be 100% certain, which I think is a pointless definition of the word.

              Certainty in a belief is a scale, from 0% to 100% (with both 0 and 100 not obtainable). For me, as I become more and more certain in a belief, which the scientific method allow for exactly that, it crosses a threshold where I accept it as true, and live my life as if it were true. This to me, is knowledge. Can knowledge be wrong, change, be open to interpretation? Of course, but that shouldn’t stop us from attempting to ascertaining the truth, which the scientific method has empirically proved to be a fantastic way to do this, and accepting certain beliefs as true knowledge.

  193. marisheba Avatar
    marisheba
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    One other thought: because the existence of the universe and its laws, the existence of anything at all, is so utterly inexplicable–truly the greatest mystery of all time–I think it is equally logical to believe that the universe has meaning (in whatever metaphysical form you understand that meaning), as not. If we can’t explain the most basic basics of reality, then how can we know one way or the other whether there is intentionality or meaning hidden somewhere inside of it?

    My imagination has been pretty captured by ideas such as: that consciousness, curiosity, and even playfulness being inherent properties of reality (after all, they exist in us – so where did they come from? Just spontaneously from nowhere?), buddhist-type ideas about the connection and oneness of all things, and other ideas that verge on the metaphysical (though, if true, would just be science we don’t yet understand). While I’m not sure it could be said that I “believe” any of these things, I find it comforting that there is no reason to rule out a universe with meaning, and that conclusion directly follows from realizing how hopeless we are at explaining our own existence and reality.

  194. ericsp23 Avatar
    ericsp23
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    I think I understand what Achenbach is saying. I think he’s saying Nothingness is a concept that only exists in the minds of sentient beings that exists in the “something” of our universe. There isn’t any really scientifically valid reason that, because there is something now, the opposite condition must have existed in reality. The laws of the universe as we understand them right now don’t require that, so there isn’t really any need to tie ourselves up in logical knots trying to come to terms with the idea.

  195. Richard Anders Avatar
    Richard Anders
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    Everything is something. Nothing is just an idea and ideas are nothing…. Like Plato’s perfect forms. If existence wasn’t observed in a universe without life, like a tree falling in the woods would it really exist?

    The nothing would have nothing if it wasn’t for the something and the something would be nothing if it wasn’t for the nothing.

  196. Casey Avatar
    Casey
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    It follows from our understanding of the universe that every single
    possible program exists including every possible kind of simulated
    universe. Why is that? The state of any point in space requires an
    infinite amount of information to describe (since QM says this state is
    given by a function in a Hilbert space). Then, we can interpret this
    infinite amount of wiggle as implementing every single program on some
    universal Turing machine (in the same way as we interpret flipping
    magnet switches on our computers as writing to the tape of some
    particular universal Turing machine). So a tiny bit of our own reality
    already spits out every possible reality, including our own if it is
    computable!

  197. Dillon Avatar
    Dillon
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    Does nothing have to be an infinite amount of nothing? Like, wouldn’t any bounds on nothingness be grounds for something? So, assuming actual nothingness has to be infinite, then maybe something is bound to come from nothing due to nothingness being infinite?

    1. Sarah Lois Covington Avatar
      Sarah Lois Covington
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      either
      1 no one created something out of nothing,
      or
      2 someone created something out of nothing

      but we have Something, and Nothing is unable to conceive.

      1. Dillon Avatar
        Dillon
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        No, you don’t know that. Nothingness might be able to.

        Our brains might not be able to digest the ideas of an actual infinity and an actual boundless nothingness. It totally could spawn something, maybe a truly infinite amount of anything or nothing is likely to eventually spawn something, maybe even everything, since it has unlimited span of opportunities to do so.

        Like, maybe if you had a goldfish that lived forever in a bowl. Eventually that goldfish could just turn blue, out of nowhere, for no reason. Because it has an infinite amount of opportunity to do so. Maybe like that, the everything that is anything spawned from complete nothingness because complete nothingness is infinite, meaning there is an unlimited amount of opportunity for something to come from nothing so it eventually did.

  198. marisheba Avatar
    marisheba
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    I agree with Tim that this is THE question. And that it is the question to make you crazy. And a question that is intimately intwined with the other crazy-making 3-in-the-morning questions about consciousness and death and self.

    But for me the question of why there is *stuff*: matter and energy, is too literal. Physicists sort of have answers for that (there’s a great Steven Hawking quote in a comment below), but those explanations avoid a yet deeper question about where the laws of the universe come from. If something can come from nothing, then clearly that nothing had some of kind of potentiality for laws or somethingness – hence it was never nothing after all. And once that somethingness emerges, it seems to come into being already understanding and being subject to an incredibly complex, specific set of laws about energy, mass, force and gravity, and knows how to organize itself. Why is THAT the case? That, to me, is the real meaning of why is there something and not nothing–it forces you to ask what something is, and why the things in our universe take the forms they do.

    I don’t have any good answers, but here’s the closest I can get: Sometimes the arbitrariness of everything around me gives me a near panic attack–why is it that that chair over there (to take another commenter’s example) is where it is, and not two inches to the left, or two atoms to the left, or a different chair entirely? What does it *mean*? But of course meaning isn’t necessary, most things simply are. And while it’s incredibly improbable that the chair should be in its exactly location, it is *more* improbable that the chair should wink out of existence entirely, so it ends up in the most probable place. And so it goes with everything, and it’s not such a big deal, and I can calm down and stop having a panic attack. And maybe the arbitrariness of the physical laws of the universe, and of the existence of a whole lot of *something*, is much the same.

  199. LiliHikari Avatar
    LiliHikari
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    When we think about Nothing, we imagine something. Some vacuum, or some empty space…anything, so it would be easier (hah -.-) to explain, and maybe eventually understand Nothing. But if we present Nothing as an opposite of Something, it could mean that we also don’t really understand what
    Something is.
    Knowing what Something IS, doesn’t mean knowing what Nothing is. But not knowing what Nothing is, means not knowing what Something is. How can we know that something isn’t Nothing if we don’t know what Something is. Of course, this sounds stupid from the point of existence: If something exists, than it’s Something. And Nothing is an opposite of that. But what that opposite means? What ‘exists’ mean? (I don’t feel like thinking in this direction right now… :P)
    Let’s say that this existence thing up there is right. And let’s imagine (or not xD) that universe has its ending. And that someone somehow got to the end of it. What would happen there, at that end, after which is, presumably Nothing? If it’s truly Nothing, than how can you even perceive that? No human sense could truly understand that.
    Let’s look at this from another perspective. Imagine a person without senses. How would a world be like to that person? How could any existance be perceivable (if that’s a real word :P) to that person? For that person there wouldn’t be anything, for him/her being incapable to sense it. And if being like that, how could they ever perceive Something, if only thing for them is Nothing, they don’t have opposite, they cannot compare….If you cannot see color, there isn’t red and not-red to you. Everything is the same. Maybe not the same from some other points, but from the point of color – same.
    And from the point of existence, couldn’t it be that Nothing and Something is the same for humans, because we don’t have the power, ability or the sense to perceive the difference?
    Like always, this kind of thinking ends with question :/

  200. patrick Avatar
    patrick
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    Tim,

    I think Joel’s answer makes a lot of sense. You are being too metaphysical with your thinking. When we look at the world and see stuff, we call them “things” and put it into our brains as a concept. Like “this is a thing”. And then when a thing isn’t there, we say “nothing is here”. So then the concept of “no-thing” arises. Even though what we were really talking about is the absence of an object in a room or cupboard or whatever.

    If you get philosophical, you can look at the world and be like “why are there things?”, but stuff is just there. Like you said, quantum physics dictates that shit has to be there. The concept of “nothing” is just a mind-exercise and nothing more. Look to science for what vacuums are, but otherwise, the world doesn’t care about what you think constitutes as “nothing”.

    As for why those rules are set up, and what’s outside the universe, idk lol

    1. marisheba Avatar
      marisheba
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      I would argue that your last line amounts to the same question that Tim is already asking. If quantum mechanics dictates there must be something, then the question of “why is there something instead of nothing” is the same as asking “why is there quantum mechanics”–I think this is the sort of question that always ends up down a rabbit hole if you chase it far enough.

  201. Adam Avatar
    Adam
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    The idea of a ‘multiverse’ (whatever that means, given that the universe by definition contains the entirety of space and everything within it) doesn’t solve anything, nor does a deity. The question “why is there something?” should be just as profound and strange to anyone, whether religious or not, whether they believe the universe is finite or infinite etc.

    And I don’t have a clue why there is something, so I won’t pretend I do. Sorry Tim.

  202. Doc c Avatar
    Doc c
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    The beauty (and the only beauty) of that question, is that we can answer it only with our imaginations. Though our imagination is limited by our experiences, the fact that we can even imagine that there could be nothing cannot arise from any real experience. Therein lies the window to the answer.

  203. Paul Avatar
    Paul
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    Because even nothing is something, maybe we don’t exist and it all an illusion.

  204. Sarah Lois Covington Avatar
    Sarah Lois Covington
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    To explain why Something exists is somewhat a religious question, but you already acknowledged one logical answer….time, space, and matter must come from a source that is timeless, space-less, and immaterial to be the Cause. In our vocabulary, that would be a godlike force, necessitating a god.

    I’ve been engaged in two books that logically seek to demolish fog and follow Truism as you call it and follow the logical path you’re traveling and facing the questions you are running into… and i think you would find them interesting “Stealing From God” by Frank Turek is the first, and yes, it discusses ideas about what a god can and cannot be just the same as you do: objectively.

    If this question is keeping you up at night, you might as well do some reading. If you don’t want to buy a copy, i’ll ship you mine.

    Religion is anciently expressed and most churches talk to people on Step 1, so that no one is confused except for those of us on Step 2 and Step 3. Then we need real answers. Apologetics has scientific logical answers and admits we don’t know everything. The spiritual crowd really have kept evolving and incorporating science…but everyone stopped listening to us when the fights broke out at the early stages. And just like you’ve point out-i don’t blame them.
    I’m glad you think this is a worthwhile topic. I’d love to send you my copy if you’d like.

  205. Jonathan Avatar
    Jonathan
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    I find questions like this extremely fun. It’s why I read Wait But Why. Many many bigger smarter books have been written about it than I can. Sorry!

    My one philosophy professor pointed out that you can do math to figure out the length of a hypotenuse. You can “Know” that math. Yet when you bring it into the real world, no line can be that straight… there will always be atomic gigglyness. Thus, the professor told us, you can imagine in your mind something “True” that can never “Exist”

    Maybe nothingness can be “True” but it can’t “Exist”. What I mean is, maybe nothingness is just an impossible “Ideal” just like that straight line hypotenuse. (Though with Entropy its sounds like our universe is speeding towards something close to it) Maybe we’re like the Whos… Caught on a speck of dust in an exploding firework of a universe shooting though space, soon to fade into eternal dark.

    You can now: Obsessively research and become an astrophysicist-philosopher OR find a story to cling to OR go mad OR feel grateful you exist in a time where these sorts of questions are permitted and keep asking and enjoy the thrill of being in unknowing free-fall. (Or a combination of the above)

    “We go about our daily lives understanding almost nothing of the world.
    We give little thought to the machinery that generates the sunlight that
    makes life possible, to the gravity that glues us to an Earth that
    would otherwise send us spinning off into space, or to the atoms of
    which we are made and on whose stability we fundamentally depend. Few of
    us spend much time wondering why nature is the way it is; where the
    cosmos came from, or whether it was always here; if time will one day
    flow backward and effects precede causes; or whether there are ultimate
    limits to what humans can know. What is the smallest piece of matter.
    Why do we remember the past and not the future. And why there is a
    universe.” – Carl Sagan

  206. Ana Avatar
    Ana
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    If the problem is that there is something when there might as well be nothing (so assuming no other prior knowledge or factors, something and nothing would have equal probability), I think you might look at this like selection bias: if or when there actually was nothing, there was no one to think about it. Accidentally we are in this situation when there is something, so we’ll also ask this question.

  207. Nathan M Avatar
    Nathan M
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    I have concluded that it is impossible to answer why there is something instead of nothing.

    What we can say is that all of physical reality either simply IS, or something nonphysical created it. I find it much easier to accept a First Cause outside of causal reality than the idea that it’s “turtles all the way down,” with all of time and space just… existing. In part because it didn’t used to. So what changed that? Quantum fluctuations and laws of physics that only apply to a reality that doesn’t exist “yet”?

    For this topic, mere intellectual honesty should allow you to acknowledge the possibility of the supernatural, even if you call it something something different than I do.

    I have much better reasons for believing there is a God, and many of them, from many areas of science, philosophy, and history. Instead of any of that, I’ll leave you with the following idea:
    It isn’t possible to be instantly and permanently healed of depression just by imagining that God told me that He would heal me at that very moment.

  208. epistememe Avatar
    epistememe
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    Simple probability
    There is only one “true” nothing and possibly an infinite of “somethings”. That there is “something” reaches a probability approaching 1.

  209. Joeswam Avatar
    Joeswam
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    The words of Stephen Hawking from his book, “The Grand Design”

    “If the total energy of the universe must always remain zero, and it costs energy to create a body, how can a whole universe be created from nothing? That is why there must be a law like gravity. Because gravity is attractive, gravitational energy is negative: One has to do work to separate a gravitationally bound system, such as the earth and moon. This negative energy can balance the positive energy needed to create matter, but it’s not quite that simple. The negative gravitational energy of the earth, for example, is less than a billionth of the positive energy of the matter particles the earth is made of. A body such as a star will have more negative gravitational energy, and the smaller it is (the closer the different parts of it are to each other), the greater this negative gravitational energy will be. But before it can become greater than the positive energy of the matter, the star will collapse to a black hole, and black holes have positive energy. That’s why empty space is stable. Bodies such as stars or black holes cannot just appear out of nothing. But a whole universe can.

    Because gravity shapes space and time, it allows space-time to be locally stable but globally unstable. On the scale of the entire universe, the positive energy of the matter CAN be balanced by the negative gravitational energy, and so there is no restriction on the creation of whole universes. Because there is a law like gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing… Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue torch paper and set the universe going.”

    Attempt to comprehend at your own risk.

    tl;dr gravitational energy is negative, it takes positive energy to create matter, the gravity of a universe has enough negative energy to balance the positive energy it would take to make a universe, thus universes can spontaneously create themselves

    1. Phusion755 Avatar
      Phusion755
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      But why is there gravity? Or any other mathematical backbones to our cosmos for that matter?

      1. Joeswam Avatar
        Joeswam
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        I think this is what marisheba is getting at when she says it kicks the can down the road, and its one of the questions that came to me, too, after reading Hawking’s explanation. It almost seems to raise more questions than it answers. Why should a physical law of the universe even be a factor before the universe itself exists?
        I’m leaning towards an ‘anthropic principle’-ish answer. If there was a non-zero chance that a universe could exist with natural laws that would allow for it to be spontaneously created, then that universe would HAVE to come into existence, eventually, within the infinite nothingness.

        But again, there is no ‘chance’ or ‘natural laws’ or ‘creation’ in nothingness, there’s just nothing… maybe not even that.

    2. marisheba Avatar
      marisheba
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      This makes a weird kind of sense to me, though I have a sneaking
      suspicion that that only indicates that I’m not actually understanding
      it very well.

      At the same time, I feel it kicks the can down the road a ways. Okay, so maybe it sorta/kinda/vaguely explains why there is *something*, but it leaves the glaring question of why something takes the form it does, follows the relationships it does, how matter “knows”. It highlights that why is there *something* isn’t the ultimate question; rather ultimate question is: “why are there natural laws that dictate the behavior of something and nothing” – which to me is really the same question – thinking of “something” as matter and energy is a bit too literal.

    3. Jane Lin Avatar
      Jane Lin
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      “Attempt to comprehend at your own risk”
      I feel like you should have put that before the Hawking blurb instead of after, my brain hurts :/

  210. Joseph William Moloney Avatar

    Accepting God moves the argument to the supernatural and metaphysical realm. The supernatural universe and the idea of eternal beings, and the like, makes the material physical universe suddenly seem small and we can accept a lot more possible reasons. The other conclusion from accepting God, is that one accepts the universe was thus “created,” which is quite remarkable, because then we ask …”why” instead of “how”.

  211. Jales Naves Júnior Avatar
    Jales Naves Júnior
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    Tim, check the comments more oftenly. A thousand people had already suggested this as a dinner table things and/or as a whole post (me included). That’s the ultimate question of them all. I’ve started to ponder about this as a very little kid, and it freaked me out.

    I also think of nothing from my something-biased point of view: black vaccuum. Which is innacurate, I know. Since I’ve never reached anywhere in my life, I’ll make sure to refresh this page every 5 minutes.

  212. jasvisp Avatar
    jasvisp
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    I remember the first time I thought about all of ‘this’. I was a little girl camping out with my family and looking at the sky filled with stars when my Dad said something like ” this is not all there is. The sky goes on and on and on into infinity, it never ends.” I actually had a physical reaction….sort of like a wave of shock and excitement and a bit of fear all rolled together. It was magical. Even now, decades later, I still have the same reaction when I take the time to really think about our existence and the how and why.

  213. Emily White Avatar
    Emily White
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    I read this post to my parents in the hope that it would spark a meaningful discussion but it ended in the exact opposite. My dad kept saying that the answer was god and refused to acknowledge any other answer (he doesn’t believe in god, he was just being contrary) and my mum got angry at me for posing a question that was pointless and concluded that things exist because we can see them. I don’t exactly know why this is relevant, but i think the point im trying to make is that in trying to find an answer to an unanswerable question, we’ll just find more questions. Example: what is nothing? is it possible to perceive nothing, or is it a concept like infinity where it is something we are aware exists, but will never be able to truly imagine?

    1. David Swanson Avatar
      David Swanson
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      Yes, it makes people uncomfortable, doesn’t it?

      You can’t imagine nothing, and you can’t perceive nothing. But nothing is aware. That’s what the awareness reading these words is! You can know this for yourself if you look closely enough.

      1. Emily White Avatar
        Emily White
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        I’m not sure if this is patronising or i’m misinterpreting your tone…but i think i agree with you?

        1. David Swanson Avatar
          David Swanson
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          Not patronising – I have noticed that many people just don’t want to think about this. They seem to feel threatened by it even, although it’s just a question.

          1. Emily White Avatar
            Emily White
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            I guess it is just a question, but it’s a big question, and it’s a question that requires a person to question what they believe. From my experience, people generally don’t like to question what they believe to be true

    2. Phusion755 Avatar
      Phusion755
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      Not to answer your question but as a possible explanation to your mum’s reaction, this might be interesting to watch

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vpqilhW9uI

      1. Emily White Avatar
        Emily White
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        I’m going to be honest, that video is 18 minutes long and i’m probably not going to watch it (sorry) but my mum doesn’t see the point in thinking about things she can’t answer, her response was not at all unexpected and judging by the title of the video, you were implying that this is somehow to do with IQ?

        1. marisheba Avatar
          marisheba
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          It’s a really interesting video, and worth watching in full. But the TL;DW version is that the talk doesn’t suggest it has anything to do with IQ, but with a generational increase in the degree of sophistication of abstract and hypothetical thinking vs concrete thinking–it has nothing to do with peoples’ inherent capacity for intelligence though.

          1. Emily White Avatar
            Emily White
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            I may watch it when it is not 1am, but that makes sense

        2. Phusion755 Avatar
          Phusion755
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          Nope, the title is pretty misleading in this case. Had more to do with our increasing ability at tackling imaginary problems and thinking more abstract in each succeeding generation

    3. Jane Lin Avatar
      Jane Lin
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      I don’t need to ask my parents to know that they’d react the same way. I’m not sure if it’s because their age means they’ve moved past all this years ago, or that they genuinely just have no interest in questions like this because there are ‘more practical’ things to be concerned about.

  214. Jack Carroll Avatar
    Jack Carroll
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    Could it be that the universe is an infinite folded fractal? No, then where did infinity come from? Quantum Mechanics created it? No, but then, where the hell did those quantum laws come from? What the fuck, why are we even here?!
    It seems to me that any explanation we could possibly come up with is limited by our stupid primate brains that were built to survive in the wilderness. We literally can’t imagine the concept of Nothing, since it wasn’t necessary for survival. So how the hell are we supposed to come up with an answer?
    No, I’m too stubborn to accept that there isn’t a solution.
    Ah, here’s a good one: what if everything is a hyper-universe? Zogg from Betelgeuse explains it better in his No Edge series on YouTube, but a hyper-cube involves taking a cube of space and connecting opposite sides of it with portals (a la Valve’s Portal series). What if time is like that? What if everything is like that? Maybe a “portal” connects the Heat Death of the universe to the Big Bang somehow.
    Dammit, that doesn’t sound right, either! What started the loop? Shit, this is harder than I thought…
    This sounds stupid, but what if… The Nothing got bored of being Nothing and decided to make Something?
    Hear me out on this one. We’re all conscious, and can agree on that. But what makes us conscious? Tim mentions a Consciousness Scale in one of his articles, and it seems never to end. What if everything is conscious? What if the universe is a shared consciousness, and we just can’t access that level of connection yet? Maybe Nothing shared that consciousness and got really fucking bored. I know I’d get bored of nothing after a while.
    That sounds cool (if REALLY Sci-fi and slightly cheesy), and it might explain a lot, but it runs into a wall. Where does the Nothing get its consciousness from?
    Arrgh, this is driving me crazy. Alright, one more try: maybe what we experience is part of a pool of Nothing, and our universe is a swirling blob of probability among infinite others? We are still surrounded by Nothing, and the Nothing still “exists,” but maybe just being Nothing brings about infinite bubbles of probability, just like simply being massive gives you inertia, and gravity. It’s a part of what we are.
    That last one was close, but it seems a bit off, too. What gives Nothing its properties?
    Bah, I’ve gone and spent an hour on this. Thank you Tim, for this awesome question, but I think I’ll take a rest from trying to solve the universe’s greatest mysteries. That’s ridiculously exhausting.

    1. AnnaQS Avatar
      AnnaQS
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      I actually believe that consciousness is scalable. Or maybe I’m trying to understand that as a super cool and most probable option.

    2. marisheba Avatar
      marisheba
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      Wonderful job tunneling through the logical conclusions though – I suppose it all amounts to different ways of counting the turtles that go all the way down, but some ways of counting are more interesting or useful than others.

  215. girly freak Avatar
    girly freak
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    I’ve asked myself this question of course a thousand times at least as most of the WBW-readers have done looking at the comments below.

    I have accepted now that this is just a law of nature that there is something, just as gravitation. Of course this is not satisfying.

    Maybe there is a logical explaination for that. Taking into consideration that we just see those 3 dimensions (4, if you involve time) and there might be another 7 dimensions (if string theory is right), we might just not be able to understand this question of why there is something without living in all 11 dimensions.

  216. Zoltan Avatar
    Zoltan
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    Consider another question: what if the universe were nothing but pure empty space. Would that qualify as nothing? If yes, then we already have a much richer idea of nothing. A thing that could have contained something, just happened to have nothing. On the other hand if empty space is something, then our original idea of no space and no time may also qualify as something in the context of something bigger that we cannot see and cannot comprehend. What if there’s not even such thing as nothing. It’s just an idea which is relative to something that we know.

  217. Ksenia Kolchina Avatar
    Ksenia Kolchina
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    The mere fact that things exist means that there has never been or could have been ‘nothing’ as we try envisioning it. Therefore It is a concept that has been coined by us, humans, and we are now trying to apply it to the universe and existence. Which is rather ironic as only we can first come up with something and then get over-obsessed with it

    1. Nathan M Avatar
      Nathan M
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      That’s true, but it doesn’t answer the question.

      1. Ksenia Kolchina Avatar
        Ksenia Kolchina
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        Nathan, what I’m saying, in essence, is that I don’t believe it’s a fruitful question to ask in the first place. We came up with a linguistic (nothing) and mathematical (zero) representation of a human idea – it’s all there is to it

        1. Nathan M Avatar
          Nathan M
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          What makes a question fruitful?

          1. Ksenia Kolchina Avatar
            Ksenia Kolchina
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            In my mind, the possibility of deriving an answer, or learning something in the process of trying to explore the subject if we cannot answer the question immediately. To me this particular question is akin to debating over whether a god exists, which I don’t think is particularly fruitful. In both cases ‘God’ and ‘nothing/zero’ is simply a name to a an abstract human idea, rooted in our inherent need to created labels in order to make sense of ourselves and everything that’s around us

            1. Nathan M Avatar
              Nathan M
              Hide

              I find it interesting that you claim A Priori knowledge of the nonexistence of God. If there is a spiritual being who interacts with the physical world, wouldn’t the question of his existence become fruitful?

  218. Kunal Menda Avatar
    Kunal Menda
    Hide

    To ask why there is something instead of nothing is to assume that everything must have a cause. This is the assumption of the Principle of Sufficient Reason (PSR). However if one were to follow an empiricist’s (such as Hume) or Kant’s philosophies, they would be skeptical of the fact that the PSR is an a posteriori claim that is only justified through experience and inductive inference. Thereby, it is not a necessary truth and need not extend to the metaphysical realm of explaining reality. And hence our Universal existence need not have a cause or explanation.

    Bonus note: Assume you do accept the PSR as necessary. This would entail that every truth is a necessary truth (search van Inwagen and Bennett), and thus that there is no free will. Between the two, I find it easier to stomach the fact that the PSR is not necessary.

  219. Shaun Avatar
    Shaun
    Hide

    What if nothing is just another arbitrary point?

  220. David Schtulberg Avatar
    David Schtulberg
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    Maybe this explaination makes sense:
    http://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/327966/jewish/Who-Created-G-d.htm

    1. G. Emswiler Avatar
      G. Emswiler
      Hide

      Does that really leave us any better than the original question? God as an answer leaves us with just as many questions if not creating even more.

  221. Jerome Avatar
    Jerome
    Hide

    For me this isn’t that hard. There is life and life demands that there is something.
    Now you may think that answer is not much better than the question but it is much better and it is truthful.

    Also for me, I can’t decide which is the bigger load of BS. Is it the biblical story of creation or is it the “scientific” story of the “Big Bang”. They are both nonsense because they both require a pre-existent something to get things started and the pre-existent thing is “undefined”.

    So it’s like this.
    Why does “A” exist?
    “A” exists because of “B”
    Ok, so why does “B” exist?
    Well, we can’t say.
    If you can’t say why “B” exists then your story about “A” is just nonsense.

    So in the above example, if “A” is the universe and “B” is either God or the singularity then you haven’t explained anything.

  222. Green0Photon Avatar
    Green0Photon
    Hide

    My guess? The universe and everything is described using math, and I think that eventually we’ll be able to describe everything with pure math and constants. Hell, those constants might arise because of math (like the way pi arises).

    In math, is something can exist, it does. (That sounds weird, but if I write any equation, this relationship could exist. Because it is using math that is consistent, it exists. In the same way a pattern exists, math does.) Math exists. If our universe is math, it must exist.

    Get what I mean? Our universe can be described and therefore is a subset of math. Therefore it can exist, therefore it does. A subset of this is multiverse theory, where every possible combination of universes exist. Likewise, if every possible combination of math exists, one of those combinations is the set of universes like ours. This set is the multiverse set. The multiverse above that (where physics are different) might be the set of multiverses made of different constants. This set might only include the original level multiverse, because the constants might arise like pi does in the math. This set exists among other complex sets of equations (assuming you can’t just describe our universe in one equation) which may or may not describe universes.

    Does that make sense? Also, it means that we couldn’t interact with anything outside of our own universe, just like how one graph can’t affect another because that doesn’t make sense.

    All possibilities exist. We’re just on one branch. Kinda.

    tl;dr: We are math which can exist so we do.

    1. Stathis Avatar
      Stathis
      Hide

      I would really like to read an article on whether maths always existed or we invented them in order to help us understand the world and everything around us.

    2. David Swanson Avatar
      David Swanson
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      “2+2=Reality”, a pamphlet by William Samuel.

  223. Phusion755 Avatar
    Phusion755
    Hide

    Going to go with Edgar Allan Poe for this one

    “Take this kiss upon the brow!
    And, in parting from you now,
    Thus much let me avow —
    You are not wrong, who deem
    That my days have been a dream;
    Yet if hope has flown away
    In a night, or in a day,
    In a vision, or in none,
    Is it therefore the less gone?
    All that we see or seem
    Is but a dream within a dream.

    I stand amid the roar
    Of a surf-tormented shore,
    And I hold within my hand
    Grains of the golden sand —
    How few! yet how they creep
    Through my fingers to the deep,
    While I weep — while I weep!
    O God! Can I not grasp
    Them with a tighter clasp?
    O God! can I not save
    One from the pitiless wave?
    Is all that we see or seem
    But a dream within a dream?”

  224. Jonathan Avatar
    Jonathan
    Hide

    https://youtu.be/YXh9RQCvxmg?t=4985

    1. Blrp Avatar
      Blrp
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      Embarrassingly terrible. I get what he’s getting at, though, which is something like “the fact that a question can be asked, doesn’t mean that it deserves an answer”. But he views the question as a scientist, which is incorrect.

  225. v43 Avatar
    v43
    Hide

    . we are
    . the universe is
    . the universe is infinite
    . we are in space and time
    . time started with the universe
    hence nothing, is inconceivable. it has no space, it has no time, it does not exist.

    There might have been *something* else, though, but then you would wonder where that came from.
    There’s no solution;
    It’s a losing game;
    So my suggestion is, don’t play, it’s pointless.
    You’d better choose something to believe in and stick with it, or change your beliefs on your death bed for the most comfortable option, whatever..

    Personally, I’m convinced there’s no god. Whatever the reason why the universe exists, it will remain a mystery by the time I’m dead. And when I’ll dye, I’ll simply shut down and never boot up again. So I try to make the most of my up time and ignore problems which are so out of scope. Just giving this answer feels like a waste of time. I wish you felt the same.
    cheers

    1. Blrp Avatar
      Blrp
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      Yeah, we’re all aware that there is something rather than nothing. That doesn’t mean nothing is invalid as a concept.

      1. v43 Avatar
        v43
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        as a concept, of the mind

        1. Blrp Avatar
          Blrp
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          what

  226. d Avatar
    d
    Hide

    If we can conceptually conceive of infinity, then there can never really be a definitive answer to any question (for given quality of “us”, if you have to make it mathematical to feel comfortable)

  227. Sj Avatar
    Sj
    Hide

    A simple exercise: – Imagine “nothing”. …Right. You imagined “something”, which is what your mind represents and understands as being “nothing”.
    We create our thoughts and conversations using concepts that were previously defined. All of them were learned and stored in our brains (or somewhere else, who knows where) as images, with associations (something) attached. Unless, we become able to take a step back and start thinking without using representations and defined concepts / go beyond the logical and rational thoughts, we will never be capable to give sense to those “things” that we labelled as “empty” or “nothing”.

  228. AnnaQS Avatar
    AnnaQS
    Hide

    ok! So we get to the roots of physics here. Any one of you ever tried looking up at the night sky and imagining the size of the universe, billions of stars? And then, imagining that ALL OF IT came from ONE POINT? All this space shrinking into one point? And then, what was around that one point? Nothing, there was no space, as it was space itself that was expanding. Now I would like to hear ONE person saying how they can really, really truly embrace that fact and not only “understand” it. I understand it too, but no way can I imagine the beginning of TIME. Come on, really? I do understand it, it makes sense, but when I try to imagine……….

    To answer the question: I believe there are two options: one – there was always something or two – the existence of something is an incident (don’t make me explain how something can arise from nothing). Also, I am an atheist, but even if there was a god, he would have to start at some point, right?

  229. David Phillips Avatar
    David Phillips
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    Tim, whenever I want to feel like a helpless child, I think about this. Usually happens about once per week.

    1. David Swanson Avatar
      David Swanson
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      Awesome, increase the frequency then. This is how you become young again! I’m not being sarcastic.

  230. Jean-Michel Avatar
    Jean-Michel
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    Science can’t answer this one, and religion is just a guess. I’m just hoping that we get to meet who-whatever created this universe because it’s beautiful beyond words, whethere you look to the tiniest quarks or the farthest galaxies. But my guess is that we’re meeting it-them right now while we’re alive, and that’s all we’ll get, so I’m trying to make the most of it.

    1. Nathan M Avatar
      Nathan M
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      “Religion is just a guess.” That would be true if all religions were made by man as an attempt to get an answer. According to the Jewish and Christian scriptures, God was the one who sought after us, not the other way around. If those scriptures were telling the truth, it would make quite a bit of difference to the terms on which you’ll meet the Creator.

  231. Kellyanne Fitzgerald Avatar
    Kellyanne Fitzgerald
    Hide

    I am religious, so yes, I have a quick answer. I don’t think your followup question is as tricky as you think. God is the reason that everything else is. Through him and by him came all things. Asking “Why was there an original creator?” makes as much sense as asking “Why is blue blue?” There is no why to it, no sinister or benevolent reason behind it. God is, hence everything.

    1. Yaroslav Avatar
      Yaroslav
      Hide

      Do you believe that there was beginning to universe as we perceive it? And if you do, then what was god doing through eternity before the beginning? And what after the end of human race?

      1. Kellyanne Fitzgerald Avatar
        Kellyanne Fitzgerald
        Hide

        Yes, I believe there was a beginning to the universe. And the problem with talking about what God does outside of this universe (before, after, etc) is that outside of our universe is also outside of time. There is no before or after. God is above, within, and surrounding the universe, but we don’t have the right terminology to describe what it was and will be like before and after, because ‘before’ and ‘after’ are time words, and time started with the universe, and will end with it.

        1. Yaroslav Avatar
          Yaroslav
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          so, then you can still think about whether are we the first universe created by God.

          I’m trying to say that even if you are religious you can think about this more, you’ll have different aproach, but your goal is still the same, to understand the world better.

          1. Kellyanne Fitzgerald Avatar
            Kellyanne Fitzgerald
            Hide

            I see what you mean, yes. I thought you were trying to start an argument, not trying to make me think. Too long on /r/debateachristian! 🙂 I agree, we can definitely always stand to think more on these issues, to try to understand the world better.

    2. Blrp Avatar
      Blrp
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      Sorry, we only accept real answers at this time. Try again later.

      (don’t, actually)

      1. Kellyanne Fitzgerald Avatar
        Kellyanne Fitzgerald
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        Good to see that the open minded, discussion friendly Internet is alive and well.

        1. Drew LeBow Avatar
          Hide

          People are so friendly, aren’t they?

        2. Blrp Avatar
          Blrp
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          What is there to be discussed? You made a bunch of assertions without backing them up with facts or reasoning.

          1. Kellyanne Fitzgerald Avatar
            Kellyanne Fitzgerald
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            I used reasoning, I simply started from a point that assumed my religion was true. Given that in his post, Tim talked about how religious people have (paraphrasing) “a quick answer, except for question X,” I didn’t think I’d need to present a complete apologetic argument for my faith in order to attempt to answer question X. And you jumped on my response with derision. Not exactly discussion friendly, is it?

            1. Blrp Avatar
              Blrp
              Hide

              God is the reason that everything else is. Through him and by him came all things. This is an assertion.

              Asking “Why was there an original creator?” makes as much sense as asking “Why is blue blue?” This is another assertion.

              There is no why to it, no sinister or benevolent reason behind it. This is a slight elaboration of the previous assertion, but it is not reasoning; it is an assertion of its own that is as much in need of reasoning to back it up as the others.

              God is, hence everything. This is a reformulation of the first assertion.

              Even if you had provided reasoning for why your religion being correct would mean that you had an answer to the question, it would still be unwarranted and arrogant to say that “I don’t think your followup question is as tricky as you think”, because you’d only have an answer under a gigantic assumption.

            2. Emily White Avatar
              Emily White
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              I don’t think the point was that you were wrong, I think the point made was that you were rude about it which, while tempting, is not necessary

    3. Drew LeBow Avatar
      Hide

      I am a Deist, so I appreciate your answer, but there are very specific reasons for blue being blue, so that’s a very bad comparison..

      1. Kellyanne Fitzgerald Avatar
        Kellyanne Fitzgerald
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        Fair enough. I was trying to pick something obvious and self proving, but blue was perhaps a bad idea, you’re right. 🙂

    4. Emily White Avatar
      Emily White
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      I feel like this is a cop-out. ‘God is’ is not an answer to why. It might not be a comfortable thing to think about, and there’s certainly no easy answer, but saying things exist because they exist, or indeed that something is blue because it is blue, is not an answer at all. Restating the fact is not and never will be an answer. I’m not at all religious, but i don’t think religion really comes into it. Nobody can ever know /why/, and I think believing that anyone can have any sort of answer to an impossible question is the pinnicle of human arrogance

      1. Kellyanne Fitzgerald Avatar
        Kellyanne Fitzgerald
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        You’re right, “God is” isn’t an answer to why. I wasn’t trying to answer “why,” I was trying to explain why asking why doesn’t really work. (A lot of whys in that sentence…) And you are certainly entitled to thinking that nobody can have an answer to a certain question, but it’s a little bit much to go on and say that believing in an answer to the question is the pinnacle of human arrogance… you don’t think that anybody can ever know why, and I think that they can. We believe the opposite, but I don’t think believing the opposite thing means the other person is arrogant… merely that they have a different point of view.

        1. Emily White Avatar
          Emily White
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          I didn’t mean that you per se were arrogant, and i’m sorry if this felt like I was attacking you specifically – that was not my intention. I do however think that it is arrogant to claim that you know the answer to a question that cannot possibly be answered. You can certainly believe in an answer, and I have no right to argue with your beliefs, but belief and knowledge are entirely different things. (for example, I believe that consciousness is an illusion and something that ends when our bodies stop working, but i would never claim to know such a thing) I think this is more a case of poor word-choice than anything more

          1. Kellyanne Fitzgerald Avatar
            Kellyanne Fitzgerald
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            I understand where you’re coming from, but my problem is when you say that it’s a question that cannot possibly be answered. Your response seems to hinge on how we can’t know these things, and that the answer (if there is one) is one that none of us will ever know. So none of us can be absolutely sure. You are absolutely sure of that. Do you see the problem? You are absolutely sure that we will never be absolutely sure. So you have your answer then- it’s just that your answer is “We don’t and can’t know.” My answer is that we can know. We’re not so different as you might think.

            1. Emily White Avatar
              Emily White
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              By it’s very definition no one can possibly know how or why things came to exist. You believe in a theory, but you do not know. You cannot possibly know. And that is a fact, it is an objective truth that you do not know. I am absolutely sure that no one can possibly know. Because they were not there, and if you have not seen it or cannot prove it then you do not know. Maybe i’m not understanding your point, but i know that just because something is believed, that does not make it fact

            2. Kellyanne Fitzgerald Avatar
              Kellyanne Fitzgerald
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              Yes, we might be crossing wires. More to say on this, but I have to be somewhere in 11 minutes, so I’ll try to respond later tonight.

            3. Emily White Avatar
              Emily White
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              I assume we’re in different time zones because for me it is after 11pm (unless of course you’re nocturnal), so while I look forward to your reply, I will most probably not reply until the morning.

            4. Kellyanne Fitzgerald Avatar
              Kellyanne Fitzgerald
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              Haha, yes, I’m in the Eastern time zone. You were saying absolutely that you couldn’t know the answer to a certain question, and I was trying to suggest that perhaps you can know the answer to that question. While you might think the answer is unknowable (merely believable), your thinking it unknowable does not make it so. It’s like the analogy of religion to an elephant, and the different blind men feeling different parts representing people from different religions. It only works if you start out knowing the end product- that religion looks like an elephant, or in your case, that the question is unanswerable.

            5. Emily White Avatar
              Emily White
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              Im not sure that analogy works here. The elephant analogy implies (correctly) that only experiencing part of something means you cannot fully understand it. Im not sure exactly how that relates here? (having this conversation at 1am may prove to be a bad idea but we shall see how it pans out)

            6. Kellyanne Fitzgerald Avatar
              Kellyanne Fitzgerald
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              Okay, but see– you’re starting with the knowledge that they only feel part of the elephant. So you know for sure that they are only experiencing part of it. That’s what I’m getting at- you’re starting with the assumption that the question is unanswerable. So anything from there out has to be wrong, not because it itself is wrong, but because of one of your axioms. Does that make sense, how they relate? And wow, 1am on a school/work night! You are braver than I.

            7. Emily White Avatar
              Emily White
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              I don’t feel like whether or not you can answer the question is a matter of opinion – there either is a definite answer or there isn’t. Also i’m moving on wednesday so i actually have nowhere to be for the next couple of days

  232. sadpumpkin Avatar
    sadpumpkin
    Hide

    I’m not sure this is a meaningful answer, and I have no background in philosophy, but I like to think of all possibilities as simultaneously existing and not existing across different dimensions (or you could think of it as across the infinite stretch of time, anything that ever can be will be). The chance of nothing existing could be BILLIONS of times more likely than the chance of something existing, but that means that once in every few billion alternate realities, there is existence. We might think, wow, we ended up in one of the very few realities that has existence, let alone life, let alone life capable of higher-level reasoning, what are the chances! But that’s only because only in those realities is anyone asking the question, so the chance of having a positive answer to the question “do I exist”, “or am I alive”, or “am I conscious” is 100%.

  233. ayyyy Avatar
    ayyyy
    Hide

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_YlZ1JdcVk

  234. David Swanson Avatar
    David Swanson
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    First of all, thank you for sharing this question – just knowing that thousands of others have experienced this makes is a little less frustrating. I’ve also had these moments since I was a kid.. wondering why is life so ARBITRARY? If there had to be something, then why is that chair over there, of all places? Or that cat, what the fuck? Why is the word “chair” “chair”? Even the aggregate of all the words for “chair” in every other language is the most pitiful sampling of the infinite possibilities for what could have been. So what the hell is this?

    In recent years, I’m starting to enjoy asking the question again. I think it is a healthy part of our development to ask it. I think it is a way of remembering something we all forgot as we became adults: our true nature. When a baby is born, their conscious experience is (mostly) undifferentiated. A baby IS nothing, but a baby doesn’t know it!! As an adult, I (we) have the opportunity to discover that I am nothing, and KNOW IT this time.

    If you can find a way to see, right now at this moment, that in addition to all the “something” out there, that you are *simultaneously* Nothing, but a miraculous Nothing which has the capacity to know itself, then the frustration of this question turns to joy and satisfaction. I still don’t know the answer to the question, but in my satisfaction, having remembered my essential nothingness, the question either doesn’t arise, or isn’t a problem when it does.

    Yeah yeah yeah, “Nothing can’t know itself, or it would be something”, but please see that this is just a thought. Rather than following that thought, let it dissolve into nothingness. To see that nothing and something coexist and also do not exist at the same time, which is right now (not really a time) – that is real meditation.

    Anyway, let me conclude by sharing the most powerful technique I’ve encountered for Seeing Nothing. It is an experiment you have to DO, not just read about. Point at some object in your field of view. Notice what you’re pointing at. Right now I’m pointing at a chair. Then point at some distant part of your body, like your foot or knee. Then point at your stomach. Then point at your chest. THEN, point directly where your “head” is supposed to be, directly back at yourself. What do you see???

    If you “get it”, you will see nothing, and KNOW it, and you may be shocked to realize that you have.. no.. head. This is from a book called “On Having No Head”.

    1. Drew LeBow Avatar
      Hide

      Except I see part of my nose.

      1. David Swanson Avatar
        David Swanson
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        just like Ernst Mach’s self-portrait, which was the inspiration for “On Having No Head”. the nose thing is the starting point of a great discussion!

    2. marisheba Avatar
      marisheba
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      I don’t get it. Would you mind explaining a bit more?

      SO with you on the arbitrariness thing though!

      1. David Swanson Avatar
        David Swanson
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        Well, I’m still not that great at explaining it, but go to http://www.headless.org and do the experiments. If that doesn’t work, then read the book “on having no head”.. you’ll get it! There are no degrees of it, and nobody is “better at it” than anybody else.

  235. matt Avatar
    matt
    Hide

    Bubbling multiverses are just theories thrown out there by physicists asking their contemporaries “prove this is impossible”.
    Hawking states in his Brief History of Time that we know that we cannot know what happened before the big bang (or big expansion) because time didn’t exist then.
    Can something exist before time does?

  236. Jacob Nestle Avatar
    Jacob Nestle
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    Okay, my answer is, in addition to being based on science, both philosophical and religious, and therefore probably not something you’d accept. Fine. But I’m putting it out there, and maybe the Great Tim will see it:

    According to quantum physics, something must exist, and inevitably something will – that much is clear. But that only answers why what is perceivable exists, and doesn’t answer many metaphysical questions. So what then? We now have a total of five options:
    1. Assume that only the physical perception exists, and reject all spirituality
    2. Assume that only the physical perception exists, and accept that we can’t understand it right now and do something a lot like your post “Religion for the Nonreligious”
    3. Assume that something beyond our physical perception exists, but assume it’s entirely natural and still reject spirituality
    4. Assume that something beyond our physical perception exists and embrace spirituality.
    5. Admit we don’t know what the frick is going on and pretend that it doesn’t matter.

    Clearly #1 and #4 are the most opposite and the most common. #5 is lazy. Your assumption dictates what you think about this question.
    I personally vary between #2 and #4 – #2 is attractive because it is just straightforward: bam, there you go, and also improve yourself. #4 allows for much more leeway, and is a lot more fun – I daydream a lot. Basically, it appeals to the side of me that kinda wants there to be much, much more than just, well, this?

    Why is there something? Because there has to be. That’s the answer whether you’re a scientist or a religious fanatic; either God has a purpose, or it’s inevitable, or (my preference) both.
    This gets into the definition of God and all, which I’m down for, but that’s my (much shortened) take on it.

    TL;DR: It’s a fricking complex question, but it’s inevitable, just read my whole post k?

    1. Keir Avatar
      Keir
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      Uh, five options?

      1. Jacob Nestle Avatar
        Jacob Nestle
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        Girlfriend distracted me, I accidentally hit post before it was finished. Edited.

        1. Keir Avatar
          Keir
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          Cheers for the TL;DR, very nice touch 😉

    2. Chris Wizzard Williams Avatar
      Chris Wizzard Williams
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      I love this comment. Oddly enough my mind dances through all five options weekly. I cant stop on one. Spinning the wheel of something and nothingness constantly

  237. Russell Scott Wollman Avatar
    Russell Scott Wollman
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    God was lonely, so he got to work on a few things. It may be just that simple.

  238. SpectralSpective Avatar
    SpectralSpective
    Hide

    I spent a lot of time pondering this myself. One day it struck me that “nothing” negates all things: it is the absence of everything. In order for there to even be such a concept of “nothing,” there has to be at least “something” to be absent or negate, and it actually makes more sense to me that “everything” that can be is, &/or “everything” that can happen does.

    To me, that’s what monotheism is trying to point at from various paths & systems of metaphors: the sum of all realities & perspectives, all positivity/creation/existence/unity/love, as opposed to all negativity/destruction/nonexistence/separation/hate.

  239. darryl Avatar
    darryl
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    Perhaps watching The Matrix while under the influence of psychedelic mushrooms could help. But most likely, it would make you realize just how complicated this non nothingness we live in is.

    -d

  240. Josh Kravetsky Avatar
    Josh Kravetsky
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    If there were nothing, no one would be here to observe it, therefore the only possible outcome is for something to exist. Consider the microcosm of this same question. Why do YOU exist? There is no reason why you needed to be born or why you need to exist at this moment. If you had not been born, you wouldn’t exist to ponder how it was possible you came into existence. The “anthropic principal” is something Tim would probably think of as “icky”. Because nothing can not be observed it can not exist.

  241. Luka Avatar
    Luka
    Hide

    Will I become nothing when I die, and was I nothing before I became this that I am? You could extend the same problem for the existence of yourself, the existence of conscious experience, and life in general, it gets even weirder then. Or imagine this, the whole universe is as it is, but there is no one to experience it, life never ‘occurred’, than the total sum of conscious experience of the universe is “nothing”. I like to confuse my self with these kinds of questions too.

  242. tweinstre Avatar
    tweinstre
    Hide

    The real question is: do you actually want to hear an answer?
    One of the greatest logicians,Aristotle,eventually arrived to the principle of “unmoved mover”.
    It just has to be there somewhere.
    Concerning quantum fluctuations,I have another interesting question…
    “Certain scientists believe that quantum mechanics suggests that nothing is inherently “unstable,” that it’s possible for little bubbles of space-time (something) to form spontaneously (out of nothing), and that if a thing is not forbidden by the laws of quantum physics, it is guaranteed to happen.”
    What does “by the laws of quantum physics” mean?
    Why those laws exist?
    Why are there any laws?

  243. Zach Avatar
    Zach
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    We are here to observe it, so it must exist. If we werent here to
    observe it, who knows whether or not there would be stuff or not, but
    then we wouldnt be here to wonder so it doesnt much matter

  244. Adam Avatar
    Adam
    Hide

    Infinite regress is the answer to everything. It’s a very unsatisfying answer.

  245. Erik V Avatar
    Erik V
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    well obviously, nothing by definition does not exist.. mathematically nothing is 0, and I think that’s the basis for the idea, because you cannot imagine nothing.

    So how about no-thing. What is a thing? where does one thing end and another start? To quote Alan Watts loosely, how big is the sun? is it as big as the visible fire? or as big as the heat it give of, or as big as it’s gravitational force? Why do we choose one attribute to define where the sun starts and ends, rather than another?

    So there really is no-thing, except for an arbitrary choice we make in common. Everything is one thing, and with only one thing there is no contrast, so it might as well be no-thing.

    My favorite theory of everything being one is that it’s all one particle. Not one type of particle, just one particle. So imagine then if you wish, a universe with “nothing” but one particle. Since there is only one, it can move at infinite speed, and appear to be everywhere at once. Which rises the next question for me, is it all really real? What if the only real thing is the experience? (and not the experienced “stuff”)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXi_ldNRNtM

    1. Nathan Colquhoun Avatar

      Hmmm, I like this. It then though still leaves us with the question, why did we ever get 1, 2, 3, why didn’t everything just stay at 0?

  246. Stevan Marinkovic Avatar
    Stevan Marinkovic
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    Nothing is something that is still outside our senses or understanding, the moment it is sensed or understood we figure out it is something and that is exactly what it becomes from nothing.

  247. Alana Taylor Avatar

    Alan Watts is the best for these types of questions!! Just spend an evening listening to his talks, you won’t regret it.

    This one touches specifically on nothingness… although there are so many others that discuss variations on the topic. I urge you to listen and be hooked (if you aren’t already a fan).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJHI7JPO0Z8

    1. Tim Urban Avatar
      Tim Urban
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      Listening to this now. He has an absurd amount of gravitas.

      1. DailySuicide Avatar
        DailySuicide
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        Watts reminds me of Ken Wilber that way. Both curiously seek sagehood instead of answers.

        1. David Swanson Avatar
          David Swanson
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          Ha, yes!

  248. Pulay Avatar
    Pulay
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    The concept of nothing is absolute stability. It is simply impossible for something to happen if there is nothing. That’s the idea. Therefore, if there is something (and there is) there never was nothing. Because if there was REALY nothing, then something never could have happened :p

  249. Nicolas Avatar
    Nicolas
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    Maybe we are created by something who is doing exeriences to know the answer to that question ^^

  250. Dan Wood Avatar
    Dan Wood
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    Great idea for an article! Also, I always wondered what nothing is made of. Maybe nothing is also something. I think all that empty space in space is called the ether? Maybe it’s something also

  251. Simon Maclean Avatar
    Simon Maclean
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    The existence of existence, the cause of causation, the meaning of meaning… Like some posters below, I see the deep ‘ponderment’ of these ideas as a way of launching our mind into the great beyond, causing, if we’re lucky, our daily paradoxical belief systems to break down for just a millisecond, allowing a glimpse into our pure calm sea of non-duality.

  252. Nathalie Gil Avatar
    Nathalie Gil
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    What if… There is a third option beyond ‘nothing’? Or perhaps a forth, fifth, infinite ones?

    1. DailySuicide Avatar
      DailySuicide
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      I would bet on the beyond nothing option. Maybe. This question makes me feel like a child. I want to pitch tantrums.

  253. Nikhil Nichani Avatar
    Nikhil Nichani
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    This is one of the few questions in life that will make anyone go around in circles. I have wondered many times – is time real? As in, is there REALLY a thing as past or future, or is it all now and everything is happening now and past and future are concepts we have created to explain what happened now and what is going to happen now. But then if there isn’t a past and future, and it is just now, then isn’t now time as well? But doesn’t that also mean that if the past and future are now, we should be able to time travel because we aren’t really going anywhere except where are now? It’s a total mind fuck.

    What really interests me is the edge of the universe. We are in this random point in the universe, with is a collection of all things that are something. But then what is the universe in? In nothing? But then how can something exist in nothing?

    Maybe one day we will know. In 100,000 years, not only will humanity as a society will be so much more developed (provided we don’t kill our self), but I believe the human species ability to process information and concepts will develop. As we challenge our self to think more and more about these questions, the more our intellectual capabilities will expand (over generations) to be able to understand them better. Think about the intellectual capabilities of the early humans, the cave men and the intellectual of humans today – over hundreds of thousands of generations it took to develop our capabilities today.

    We could also just find out in 50 years when full AI is around and could solve the answer in a matter of minutes.

    This question I think makes Elon Musk’s mars mission even more important. There is so much we have achieved, and so much more to achieve. If it would be a damn shame if we lost it all because an asteroid decided to be a dick and hit us or we did it to our self.

    Good question though. I’m going to ask everyone I talk to this week this question.

  254. Catherina Avatar
    Catherina
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    42?

  255. Nicolas Avatar
    Nicolas
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    I think about this since I’m 8 and now I believe that the purpose of life is to know the answer to that question 😀 And that’s why we go to space ! To know the answer !

  256. TheHrybivore Avatar
    TheHrybivore
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    I think ‘nothing’ does not exist. If there was absolutely nothing, then that is something. The nothing is the lack of anything. So if we have to have something (nothing is something) then why not have something as well. If nothing is something, there is a 100% probability of there being something. Why not let that something be a universe?

    1. Blrp Avatar
      Blrp
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      Human intuition leads us to think of nothing as a concept, which is “something” in a sense. We also tend to think of nothingness as a boundless void of utter blackness, but this does not make nothingness boundless or black. If there was no matter, no physical laws, no space and no time, there wouldn’t be “something”.

  257. Blrp Avatar
    Blrp
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    It doesn’t make sense to dismiss nothingness on quantum-mechanical grounds. Take the Schrödinger equation, for example. It describes how particles behave in a space-time coordinate system. So why should it be assumed to be “prior” to space and time? If there’s no space and time, the Schrödinger equation can’t describe what happens in it, and I’d imagine the same is the case with false vacuum and all that.

    And in either case, you still have to explain how quantum-mechanical laws exist, not merely as an explanatory mathematical model, but as the “principle” that “decides” how things are. It didn’t have to be so. There’s a difference between vacuum within an existence of space and time governed by physical laws, and true nothingness in which there is no space, no time, no matter and no laws.

    1. v43 Avatar
      v43
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      I partly agree and was thinking about the same.
      But I may add, quantum mechanics is just a model made to fit reality, and although it doesn’t make reality, it can be used to make previsions on some unknown quantities. This “indirect measurements” can also be used to support new conjectures, like in this case.

      But it seems to me like we’re basically saying: the universe gives us the clue that since it’s here, there could not be nothing, and if there was nothing* it couldn’t be any longer**
      no shit sherlock!

      (* bear in mind that “nothing” is just a mental concept and not an actual entity=something)
      (** also bear in mind that time is part of the universe, so when the universe popped up time began, and before there was .. nothing!)

  258. Fiel Avatar
    Fiel
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    I think you would appreciate the stories by Jorge Luis Borges. Look him up if you haven’t already.

  259. Alfred Avatar
    Alfred
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    Well I’ve always thought this question as an oppurtunity. We know nothing about physical (not really) nothing so once we invent FTL travel (sooner or later), number 1 priority is getting a ship as far away from the rest of matter as possible and seeing what happens. Then again maybe this is why stuff exists because nature compels itself to fill gaps and explore.

  260. D_Aiello Avatar
    D_Aiello
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    Looks like that question “if a tree fall in the middle of the jungle, does it make a noise? How can anyone be sure if no one is there to listen?”. Instead in your question you put Nothing in the place of the tree and Reality in the place of the jungle (I was about to say Universe, but it did`t seem logical).

    I believe, like the sound of the tree, that Nothing is possible, at least theoretically, even if anyone is capable of observe it. But that’s my opinion taken under beer influence, right now, in a hot brazilian afternoon.

    1. D_Aiello Avatar
      D_Aiello
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      Wait, maybe the universe pop-uped like the bubbles in my beer foam!

  261. András Kühn Avatar
    András Kühn
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    I feel for you. Whenever I come across this topic, my brain kinda zooms out, like the end of the first MIB movie and compresses reality into a sphere floating in white hot nothing (like the construct in the matrix movies). Then it all stops, and the perspective can’t get out further to explain the white hot nothing, and I feel like there’s this static just beyond my peripheral vision that I can’t turn towards and see. I’m guessing you mean this by no context.

  262. JKG Avatar
    JKG
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    There’s no way of honestly comprehending it unless you make some incredible new discovery because, as far as we know, that’s honestly the universe’s “question”. It makes no sense to me at all, so i just ignore it and sometimes think of that “consciousness staircase” thing you had, basically just assuming that I’d need to be on a higher level to comprehend something like that

    Edit: The best metaphor I can think of for the way I think of it is like asking what a new color looks like

    Another edit: Don’t think about it too much though, if you dwell on it you’re just gonna fuck yourself up trust me dog

  263. Gape S. Avatar
    Gape S.
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    I don’t know the answer to this question, but that doesn’t mean you couldn’t derive a life goal from this. If I don’t know what the purpose of all this is, then my purpose is to create and maintain an environment in which someone else can figure it out.

  264. kobold Avatar
    kobold
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    Consider “nothing” as number zero – just a logical concept to make your life easier. As a philosophical point of reference rather than real thing. I guess that doesn’t help, huh?

  265. :) Avatar
    🙂
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    +1-1=0
    perhaps from nothing, dualities arise? or other kinds of things idk lol

  266. Supakorn Suttiruang Avatar
    Supakorn Suttiruang
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    I’ve been researching about “Why does everything exist?” to make a video explaining it and bringing people through some complex topics simply. I ran into Lawrence Krauss’ lecture about “The Universe from Nothing”. He showed us how the scientists proved that the universe is flat and how this property allows something to pop up from “nothing”. In quantum mechanics, empty space is not exactly empty, even if you remove all the stuff away, there will be virtual particles jumping in and out of existence, creating “something”, and a flat universe has the total amount of energy of exactly zero, so something can be created with nothing, if given enough time.

    More in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

    1. disqus_HQl9LwTw0e Avatar
      disqus_HQl9LwTw0e
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      See, the difference is that this doesn’t really answer the question.

      Yes a flat space has zero total energy which means that we didn’t HAVE to have a jump-start in our universe, and a “creator”is not strictly required.

      However this does not answer WHY our universe pop-up into existence. Even more: does even make sense to believe that there were laws of physics “before” the universe’s creation ?

      1. Supakorn Suttiruang Avatar
        Supakorn Suttiruang
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        Exactly. This might explain how something can possibly created from nothing, but it doesn’t explain why. It’s pretty creepy to think about what could happen before the so-called Big Bang, when every time we tell a story about the universe we always start there. Did evolution trick us to think that there must be a reason? Are we all brains in vats? What the fuck is going on?

    2. Andrew Niese Avatar
      Andrew Niese
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      But that isn’t “nothing”, at least in the philosophical sense, that is a state in which virtual particles can pop into existence (quantum vacuum/quantum foam) — something.

  267. Andrija Čajić Avatar
    Andrija Čajić
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    The question “Why?” can mean two things:
    1) What is the purpose?
    2) What is the cause?

    “Why” is the question that arises from Causality, which only exsits in a space-time continuum. Only in such a system it can be sensible to ask such a question.

    So, I think we are fundamentally making a mistake by imposing causality on systems “outside” space-time.

    However this observation still doesen’t satisfy me and I myself have been struggling with this question for a long time. So, I will keep a close eye on these comments 😉

  268. Cameron Avatar
    Cameron
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    I’m partial to what Achenbach is saying. Nothing to me seems as illogical as a square circle. If there is an area of a dimension in which nothing exists, it will be inaccessible from any realm in which something exists. What is the universe expanding into? Presumably nothing – a non-area. The universe isn’t so much annexing more space as growing to be larger. The very idea of “outside the universe”, in time or space is as nonsensical to folks like Hawking as a square circle is to philosophers.

    But I agree with you with the context thing. Whatever exists apart from this universe, it seems there must be something. Something that caused this place to be a place. But without context, without a way to access a different realm, there is not way to know what that may be. Perhaps as physics progresses we’ll figure out a way to get some more data.

  269. k0an Avatar
    k0an
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    What if there were no hypothetical questions?

    1. Blrp Avatar
      Blrp
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      We’d all be living in caves, banging rocks together, hunting with spears and dying at 30.

      1. k0an Avatar
        k0an
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        Incorrect. The only correct answer is no answer at all because otherwise you’re answering a question that doesn’t exist.

        1. Blrp Avatar
          Blrp
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          Actually, the question does exist. Look, it’s right there above my first comment. I can answer a question about a hypothetical world as long as I remain in the real world.

  270. DrFil Avatar
    DrFil
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    This is one of the few questions that gives me a sinking feeling in my stomach as my mind spirals down the rabbit hole. In the end, religion (organized or otherwise) has no answer and philosophy is of little help as well. The reason for the existence of existence is a non-material matter in our daily lives; so carry on as you were.

    (I get a similar sinking feeling when I think about death… how can I just not be alive? How would I know I’m dead if I’m not alive to know I’m dead?)

    -_-

    1. Nikhil Nichani Avatar
      Nikhil Nichani
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      Death is a really interesting one. What is death? which then leads to the question, what is life? I’ve thought about this a lot. All it takes going from alive to dead is a few minutes of not breathing. What happens to our consciousness in that period? What is consciousness?

      Think about this. People who get into a horrible accident, are in a completely vegetated state but are breathing, so they meet the medical definition of being alive…but are they truly alive? Is that person that we all knew before the accident still alive? or are they dead? If they are alive, then why is there consciousness no longer the same?

      Total mind fuck brah

  271. disqus_HQl9LwTw0e Avatar
    disqus_HQl9LwTw0e
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    Well,

    What we learn from physics is that nature HATES nothingness. At the most fundamental level, nature fills space that would be void with very short-lived things. (Also, there is no such thing as a quantum physicist. Every physicist works with quantum mechanics.)

    But that doesn’t really touches the core of the question which is why things exist ?

    All I can say is that it is possible that existence is something that comes naturally from logic. I mean that through logic something has to exist. But that’s a very platonic way of seeing things and I don’t thing that LOGIC by itself has any physical reality.

    Another point of view is just say the obvious: Nature does not care about our whims and our need for meaning/reason, nature is and we have to live with it.

  272. What even Avatar
    What even
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    It appears my Whatever the Fuck That Means cabinet is full. I’ll be back to answer this after I buy 20 more. Or 800. Probably.

    1. What even Avatar
      What even
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      But seriously. This is the kind of question that keeps me awake for 3 days straight until I just accept it. I think I agree with Achenbach’s logic, though. Nothing is something we made up because we assume theres an opposite to Something. Not like we’ve ever experienced Nothing to be sure of it.

      1. girly freak Avatar
        girly freak
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        “Nothing is something[…]” – Very nice! 😀

      2. David Swanson Avatar
        David Swanson
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        Achenbach is responding to Nothing as a concept. A concept is certainly something, so I get his point. But are we only capable of seeing concepts? How then are you even understanding what I’m writing? What you really are is something beyond the conceptual, and in which concepts appear from time to time, including the concept of nothing. The harder you look at who or what you are, the less you come up with. Sounds like Nothing to me.