The Marriage Decision: Everything Forever or Nothing Ever Again

There’s not really any normal way to start a relationship. Some people go on a date, and then another date, and then another, and one day it’s just clear to both of them that they’re in a relationship. Some people start seeing each other, but they keep things black and white until a “So are we doing this?” conversation makes it official. Sometimes a platonic friendship forms first and tension builds under the surface until an unexpected kiss lights the friendship on fire.

But there’s usually some first time that this happens:

(holding hands) stick 1: so does this mean... that you're my girlfriend? / stick 2: yeah... I think that's what it means...

And suddenly, you’re here:

couple floating on a cloud

Your new relationship is with you all the time, even when you’re not together.

smiling on a subway car

You’ve left the rest of shitty humanity behind, and it feels great. Then this happens:

stick figure couple on park bench. "I love you"

stick figure couple riding unicorns

And all the song lyrics make sense.

It goes on like this for a while, but as the months pass, you notice things changing. The unicorns turn into horses and then bikes and then one day, you’re not riding anything at all. The perfect person you found starts to say and do imperfect things. Some of those funny quirks you adored early on seem to be striking you as more annoying than funny. And it starts to dawn on you that you might be dating a fucking dick.

stick figure couple sitting on opposite ends of a couch, angry

Sometimes things go further south, as butterflies and rainbows turn into frustration and disillusionment, and the relationship that used to lift you up seems to now be boxing you in.

stick figure in a cage

All of the negative qualities you couldn’t see in the fog of love are suddenly right in your face, like a weight that’s dragging you down.

stick figure ball and chain

A lot of relationships end right about here.

But maybe, having seen the dark side of your partner, you step back and take a long look at both the good and bad together. You put away both the rose-colored glasses and the shit-colored glasses and see who you’re really dating: a three-dimensional, one-of-a-kind, beautiful, piece-of-shit human being.

Who’s the best.

stick figure couple laughing together

And the worst.

stick figure couple arguing with each other

And your teammate.

stick figures holding hands in a crowd

And your rock.

stick figure consoling another stick figure

And you decide you like what you’ve got.

And your lives go on together.

couple walking down blue road

But just when things get simple, something else starts to happen:

edges of blue road start to crack; concerned stick figure

blue road gets narrower

stick figure couple huddled on a thin blue beam (their relationship) between "soul-crushing breakup" and "permanent marriage till you die"

Society, in most parts of the world, doesn’t like when a relationship lasts too long. To society, a relationship is simply a testing ground—an incubator that prepares you for The Decision. And if too many years go by in a relationship without The Decision being made, society decides that something must be wrong. To help right the wrong, society will begin to apply pressure on the couple, from all angles.

Some people are bigger than society. Most of us are not. For most of us, society’s rules are our rules, and as you and your person walk down your blue balance beam, you can feel the walking space melt away around you. It’s time to make The Decision.

Your relationship needs to be converted into Everything Forever or Nothing Ever Again. Soon.

The typical human isn’t really equipped to make The Decision. We evolved to live short lives, during which life-altering 60-year commitments weren’t a thing. We evolved in small communities without nearly as many available options. And most of us, when presented with The Decision, have relatively little relationship experience and an incomplete understanding of our own adult selves—selves that in many cases only recently started existing.

But society doesn’t care. So you decide.

Humans have come up with four main methods to make The Decision:

Method 1) Let the other person decide

The easiest way to handle The Decision is to just not really handle it. You take a passive approach, as if you’re on a raft, going down a river, and you have no control over where the current leads you—you’re in the hands of momentum and inertia. Once you hit your mid-20s, you just wait until you get into your next relationship and then marry whoever that person happens to be, whenever/if-ever that person decides it’s time, regardless of how right or wrong the relationship is for you. 

Method 2) Let your primal forces battle it out

For people determined to more actively make The Decision, the next easiest way to go is to let your emotions and primal forces figure it out. Making The Decision provides a reminder that “you” is actually a collection of voices, each weighing in from different parts of evolutionary history. Each voice has its role in the homeostasis of our normal lives, but when it’s time for something as rare and important as The Decision, there’s suddenly a brawl in your head for influence—and no one brawls harder than your primal forces. Some of the major players:

Love

Deep down, most people are sympathetic characters. And when you’re in a relationship for enough time, you’ll usually end up loving the person—even if you don’t like them. You know their whole story, which makes you care about them and the fact that they rely on you makes you feel a tremendous loyalty to them. This is the kind of love you feel for your family and closest friends, and it can exist in full force even after the feeling of being “in love” has faded. And for many people, this deep emotional connection makes it basically inconceivable to ever break up with their partner. This is a beautiful way to make The Decision when you’re in a strong, healthy relationship, and a tragedy when you’re not.

Fear

Humans specialize in making critical life decisions based on fear, and when it comes to The Decision, there’s a lot to be afraid of.

When a fearful person takes a look to the left side of the balance beam, they might see all kinds of things:

fear monsters on the "soul-crushing breakup" side

The right side of the beam isn’t much better.

fear monsters on the "permanent marriage till you die" side

Different people feel these fears at different levels of intensity, and for someone whose fear tends to run their life, it’s usually pretty simple: the particular fear that grabs them hardest by the collar ends up making The Decision.

Ego

Your ego, meanwhile, is busy staring down at a clipboard. Depending on what your ego values, that clipboard might display a checklist describing your ideal partner—their appearance, age, family background, intelligence, job, wealth, general personality type, etc. Or maybe the clipboard has a story written on it, one that was written long ago about how your life should go. Your ego will examine your current situation and see how it measures up to what’s written on the clipboard, and it’ll base The Decision on its findings.

While all of this analysis is going on, your ego sometimes also finds itself getting very hungry—for admiration, attention, and conquest. If this hunger gets too intense, it can overwhelm an ego to the point where it may sway its vote, no matter what the clipboard says.

Sex Drive

Your sex drive is not a complicated character. If it has a grilled cheese sandwich every day for lunch and then one day, you ask it if it would like to try the buffet, it’s going to say yes. Unless, of course, the grilled cheese is super fucking incredible.

So these four primal forces, along with a few others, all voice their opinion at the same time. In some people, all of the voices are in agreement about the verdict. In others, the voices disagree, but one of the voices is so loud that it drowns out the others. In both of those cases, The Decision is pretty easy.

But what happens when your primal forces provide no clear answer?

Method 3) Turn to your gut

For some reason, we have wise stomachs, and when The Decision isn’t obvious, sometimes asking your gut can do the trick.

Your gut relies on your intuition and asks one simple question:

gut - "does this feel right?"

And what makes your gut your gut is that when it answers that question, it doesn’t deliberate—it just knows the answer: a simple yes or a simple no. The gut doesn’t deal with nuance, which makes it a good match for something big and binary, like The Decision.

And for a lot of people, this works.

But there are some people who won’t end up being passive Deciders, or emotional Deciders, or gut Deciders—who won’t turn to any primal or instinctual voice when it comes to this particular decision. They’ll get to the bottom of this in spite of those voices—based on experience and evidence and data and facts. They won’t be instinct-driven or fear-driven or ego-driven or sex-driven—they’ll be guided by rationality.

The brain Deciders.

And when it comes time for them to make The Decision, they’re in big trouble.

Method 4) Figure it out in your brain

The prefrontal cortex is kind of like the brain’s brain. It’s the part of you that sorts through information and makes plans and predictions and weighs evidence. It’s great at using what it learns to draw conclusions about how to act or what to do—as long as it knows the rules of the game and has access to the right information. And when it’s time for The Decision, your brain will do what it always does when confronted by a fork in the road—it’ll attempt to think and assess and analyze its way to the optimal rational answer.

Something as important and permanent as The Decision requires conviction, and conviction requires a source. No source of conviction, no Decision.

The source of the heart’s conviction is its love and care for the other person. The source of the ego’s conviction is its belief in its clipboard. Fear and sex drive derive their conviction from the obvious—fear and sex. The source of the gut’s conviction is an instinctive feeling that emerges from experience. And an inertia-y person gets their conviction from the conviction of someone else. Those sources are what allow people to make The Decision with relative ease.

The brain hears these voices, but it discredits their conviction in each case because the certainty emerges from what the brain sees as an irrational place. For the brain, the only respectable source of conviction is sound evidence.

And good luck with that.

If you’re typically a brain person, when it comes to The Decision, you want to try to not be you. Because the brain, for all its merits, does not do well in this situation, where the outcome is critical and evidence is hard to come by. Let’s look at how it might go:

Maybe you start by looking over to the marriage side of the balance beam—where you see a house.

house

That’s the house of the life you’re about to sign up for. You really enjoy your relationship, so you’re excited about what might be inside that house. But the house is also mysterious, because you don’t really know what either you or your partner will be like as a spouse or how either of you will grow or change in the future. Not much concrete evidence there.

So you turn and look over at the breakup side of the beam. You see a path, and a couple walking down it.

stick figure couple walking down a road

That road is whatever life you’d end up living if you were to move on from your relationship, and that’s the marriage you’d end up in. The marriage that might have been.

What kind of marriage would that be, and what adventures lie down that road? Maybe your life on that road would be much happier than whatever’s in that house on the other side, and maybe your current partner would end up happier somewhere else too. Or maybe you’d look back and realize that you made the biggest mistake of your life. Without knowing anything about that other path, there’s no way to compare it to the house on the other side. Again, no real evidence.

So you take a closer look at the one thing you have actual information about: your current relationship.

You decide to make a big chart where you list all the things you like and don’t like about your relationship—a relationship-assessment chart. You end up here:

Venn: Things I Want to Have in a Relationship and Things I Don't Want to Deal With in a Relationship. (from left to right) blue: Things I Wish I Had, green: Things I'm Happy I Have, yellow: Things I Wish I Didn't Have to Deal With, red: Things I'm Happy I Don't Have to Deal With

Fucking great—now what? All relationships—the good ones and the bad ones—have a chart that looks like that, with things in all four of those zones: blue, green, yellow, and red. And without much relationship experience or marriage expertise, you have no good way to evaluate whether your particular diagram looks as promising as you hope it does or whether there are red flags in it that you’re not seeing that will lead to major issues later. You try comparing your relationship to those that your friends are in—but it’s hard to know what really goes on in other relationships, and each one is so complicated and unique anyway that it’s mostly apples and oranges.

Without any way to construct an airtight argument in either direction, you’re left feeling very little conviction about the situation. Because the stakes are so high, you become paranoid about making the wrong choice, and every time you think you might have an answer, you second-guess yourself.

The whole thing quickly becomes a mindfuck. You try talking yourself into feeling good about marriage by reminding yourself that every relationship has flaws and that marriage is all about acceptance—but then you realize that that’s also exactly how someone sounds when they’re talking themselves into settling for the wrong person. In both of those cases, the green and red zones of the diagram provide more than enough material to construct a full “why this is a great decision” argument. Likewise, if you wanted to play devil’s advocate and look at the reasons this might not be the right marriage for you, the blue and yellow sections of the diagram would make it easy—whether breaking up is a wise move or a foolish one.

And because the diagram and its four zones allow you to so effortlessly construct whatever convincing narrative you want to about your relationship and The Decision, you worry that anything that feels like conviction is just you falling for a narrative created by fear or ego or some other deep-down motivation.

Unable to come to a trustworthy conclusion, the brain person becomes a Paralyzed Pre-Marriage Relationship Person. A PPMRP has three options:

1) Procrastinate. Until you die, until your partner dies, or until your partner breaks up with you.

2) Turn back around and succumb to one of the primal forces. Maybe if you wait for a while, your fear of being single at 36 will overpower your dedication to rationality?

3) Come up with a decision-making litmus test that actually works.

Assuming you don’t find the first two options ideal, let’s talk about litmus tests.

The “actually works” part of option 3 is important, because people often come up with decision-making litmus tests that don’t actually tell you anything. For example:

An overly-broad, one-size-fits-all litmus test is a bad litmus test. 

Like, “If I’m still toiling over this three years in, that’s probably a sign this isn’t the right thing for me.” Or, “I’m sure if we’ve been together this long, there’s a good reason for that.” Or, “If I still have the desire to sleep with other people, it must mean my heart’s not in this.”

Litmus tests like those suggest that everyone who toils over the marriage decision should break up or that every couple who’s together for a long time should get married or that no one in a great relationship still wants to sleep with other people. Different people do things like toil or stay together or feel promiscuous—or 100 other things—for totally different reasons, so broad statements like those don’t help with anything.

A litmus test that always yields the answer “We should get married” is a bad litmus test. 

Like, “When I picture them standing on the altar with someone else, it’s a horrible thought—that must mean it’s the right move to marry them.” Or, “When we broke up for three days last month, I missed them unbearably—and it told me all I need to know.” Or, “I care about them more than anything and really want the best for them—that’s how I know I want to be with them.”

All these litmus tests tell you is that you A) feel possessive, B) feel attached, and C) love the person. In most long relationships—good and bad—the people in them feel all three of these things. The only real information you learn with tests like these is that you are, in fact, in a relationship.

A litmus test that always yields the answer “We should break up” is a bad litmus test.

Any version of the question, “Is this person a great match for me in every important way?” or “Is this person the best person for me?”

No, the person isn’t a great match for you in every important way. That has never happened before in our species. Likewise, there are at least a few hundred million people in the world that match your sexual preference. Only one of them is the best possible person for you. The chances that you were ever in the same square mile as that person are tiny, and the chances that you’re currently dating them are you’re not currently dating them. Litmus tests like these either require you to have a delusional view of your partner or the world, or they’re pretty much guaranteed to yield the conclusion that you need to break up and continue your quest for The One.

People struggling with The Decision crave guidance, and while statements like all of these can feel like a rescue line out of the PPMRP quagmire in the form of some larger wisdom, they don’t actually tell you anything about what you should do.

A good system for tortured brain people

I’m not an expert on this, nor am I married—but I’ve read a lot about it, and I’ve had a front row seat for a large handful of case studies, watching friends go through The Decision and talking to them about it while it was happening. And I think if we just use common sense, we can probably figure out what a hopeless brain person can do in this situation—so let’s give it a try.

To me, a good system might be as simple as these two steps:

Step 1) Find out where your gut is leaning, using thought experiments.

The gut is a real thing. And for our purposes here, your gut is the little kid in you who just wants one outcome more than the other.

The problem for brain people is that they’re by definition not gut people. The gut draws its wisdom from a mysterious place the prefrontal cortex does not understand, which makes brain people suspicious of the gut’s conclusions.

And suspicion is fine here, since your gut’s wisdom is limited by your experience and guts are often proven wrong with time—but the gut’s opinion is still important information.

Gut people have good practice at communicating with their gut about important decisions. Brain people do not—and the usual gut question—”does this feel right?”—won’t work. So we need to use thought experiments to isolate the gut’s voice amongst the cacophony in your head. Exercises like these are best designed by you, for you, since only you know you. But here are some ideas:

One kind of thought experiment creates a simulation in your head, which acts like a fishing fly, and our goal is to try to get the gut to be fooled by the simulation for a moment and jump at the bait, revealing what it really wants.

Something like: “Imagine you were being arranged married by the town matchmaker and she handed you an envelope with your to-be spouse’s name written inside. You open the envelope and it’s the name of your current partner.” This image might just make your gut jump up for a second and say, “Phew!” Or maybe instead, it would deflate just a little, just for a moment. If either happens, that’s good information.

Another type of thought experiment tries to get at the general yes or no feeling the question “does this feel right?” is supposed to reveal, but with some real on-the-nose imagery.

Like: “Picture two gravestones next to each other—yours and your partners. Does that feel right?”

Some of the most telling thought experiments help hear what the gut’s saying by trying to remove the often deafening voice of fear from the question and seeing if that changes anything.

For example, to test whether a resistance to breaking up is just a dread of the actual breakup itself, you could ask: “If there were a big green button in front of me that, if pressed, would make me fully single, where everything has been worked out with getting our things from each other’s apartments, where everyone in my life already knows, and where I’m totally emotionally recovered and moving on—in fact, I have a date tonight—would I press the button?”

Or if the real fear is of being single for years and years and never finding a new relationship, the button could do all of those things but also include “and I’m immersed in a new relationship.”

A fear of eternal commitment could be sussed out with a question like, “What if The Decision weren’t between breaking up and marriage, but only between breaking up and committing to the relationship for the next five years?”

If thought exercises like these leave you with the feeling that your inner inner self is “pulling” for the relationship, that’s promising.

But it’s not enough.

Step 2) Figure out what your deal-breakers are.

Let’s bring back our relationship assessment chart:

relationship Venn diagram between "things I want to have in a relationship" and "things I don't want to deal with in a relationship"

As we established earlier, this chart doesn’t provide much insight into how The Decision should go, because almost every relationship—the good and the bad, the healthy and the harmful, those built to last and those doomed to fail—has a chart like this, where it checks some of the right boxes and some of the wrong boxes, and also misses some of each. And yet, certain charts map out happy couples and others do not. So what’s the difference?

Deal-breakers.

Even though these charts show that there are many, many things we want from a relationship, our ability to be happy only depends on a small percentage of them.

Our relationship chart is like a happiness puzzle, and the items in the green and yellow zones are the pieces. The right question to ask about the chart isn’t, “Is this perfect for me?” or, “Will I automatically be happy if this is my chart?” The right question is, “How can I work with these pieces to figure out how to make myself and my partner happy?” If you’re a good puzzler, with some work and compromise—i.e. some adultness—you’ll probably be able to figure it out.

Unless the chart is missing one of your deal-breakers.

Your deal-breakers are the things that, if not part of your relationship, will guarantee your unhappiness. They’re things that no amount of hard work or compromise or maturity can fix. Your must-haves—and your must-not-haves.

A deal-breaker usually comes in the format:

There’s no way I can figure out how to be happy with someone who is / isn’t  ____.

There’s no way I can figure out how to be happy with someone who does / doesn’t ____.

There’s no way I can figure out how to be happy with someone who values / doesn’t value  ____.

There’s no way I can figure out how to be happy with someone who treats me / doesn’t treat me ____.

There’s no way I can figure out how to be happy with someone who believes / doesn’t believe  ____.

Or maybe:

Out of principle, I will only be with / will not be with someone who ____.

Most real deal-breakers will be broad—e.g. “I may be able to fall in love with a negative person, but I could never be happy with that person.” Or, “I will never be with someone who makes my self-esteem lower.” Or, “I could never be happy with someone who isn’t intellectually curious.” Or something clean-cut like, “I could never be happy with someone who refused to have children.”

Deal-breakers that are more specific in nature can in some cases make sense—maybe you love dogs so much that it would truly impede you from being a happy person if you ended up with someone who didn’t want to own a dog—but they should be rare.

The key with all of these is that there are very few. These aren’t wants—these are needs. Your wants are important, but remember, the only people even eligible for the deal-breaker test are those who have already passed the gut test—plenty of your wants have already been taken care of in step 1 of our system.

Knowing your deal-breakers can help you know the right relationship when you see it, but it can also go a long way for anyone already in a relationship, because it lends insight into one of the trickiest aspects of a relationship: compromise. A great way to be unhappy is to refuse to compromise on things you wish were true about your relationship that aren’t. But another great way to be unhappy is to be too willing to compromise on your deal-breakers. That’s why this is so important—deal-breakers not only help Deciders and single people figure out what should be unacceptable in a relationship, they also remind already-Decided people that most of the problems in their relationship are probably non-deal-breakers that it’s okay to chill out about. Because so many relationship problems boil down to one or both members treating non-deal-breakers like deal-breakers—or vice versa.

And that’s really it. This gut check / deal-breakers system suggests that the mindfuck of The Decision is actually pretty simple—if a relationship successfully makes it through both steps 1 and 2, get married. If it doesn’t, don’t.

At least that’s what the system says.

But who knows. Relationships are impossibly complicated. And making a black-and-white binary decision about something that’s anything but black-and-white is kind of an insane thing to do.

And of course, even if it’s the right system, it’s not actually easy because assessing step 1 and step 2 isn’t easy. Getting a reading from your gut that you can trust is no small task for someone who typically lives in their brain—and figuring out what your deal-breakers are requires a serious deep-dive into your soul.

But for now, at least it’s a system—and a system you can hang on to. Which is just what some of us need.

stick figure hands clinging on to the (now very thin) blue balance beam

___________

If you liked this:

Another Wait But Why deep dive into the quandaries of figuring out who to marry: How to Pick a Life Partner

Some further issues, over in the world of single men: 10 Types of 30-Year-Old Single Guys

Once you finally make The Decision, you go straight into another Decision: How to Name a Baby

_______

If you like Wait But Why, sign up for our email list and we’ll send you new posts when they come out.

To support Wait But Why, visit our Patreon page.

Read this next

138 comments

Leave a Reply

  1. Christina Vorce Avatar
    Christina Vorce
    Hide

    This article is very helpful and interesting {jajatemplenull@.net} I was emotionally depressed when my marriage for 10 years was about to end until I met priest Jaja who helped to reconcile my marriage back in just 3-day when followed all the information and instructions he gave I am very grateful thank you sir . Any in similar circumstances can reach out to him on the info. up circled

  2. JT Avatar
    JT
    Hide

    Your article was a litmus test on if I read more on this site. It’s too bad you’re not actually married and understand this process. Writing an article like this is like studying the stock market without ever investing a dime. You covered the basics of the choice to get married well enough, but you don’t understand how to manage the actual choice after the fact. In marriage there will be the ups and downs, but the way you control that is choice. You choose how to respond. You choose to listen or run. You choose to side with your partner or not. Choosing them based on simple “I can’t stand them doing this” stuff is short sighted. You do stuff all the time that others can’t stand. Most of it is in the confines of where you live, so the only one to see it is someone who lives with you.

    Marriage is committing to someone for life. You can choose the other, and I’m not an expert there, since I’ve been married for 20 years. As for some of the other stuff, yes, you’re right. You should never stay with someone that belittles you, but you could at least start with the conversation about that. They might not know they are doing it. They might know and not care. You won’t know until you talk to them. There are lots of biases and choices that exist in and around marriage. Make the choice based on love, but live the choice based on kindness.

    1. J Avatar
      J
      Hide

      You covered the basics of the choice to get married well enough, but you don’t understand how to manage the actual choice after the fact.

      So exactly what the article purported to cover.

  3. seducer34 Avatar
    seducer34
    Hide

    I like Your post, it is fun, but also very realistic .

  4. Jin Xiang Han Avatar
    Jin Xiang Han
    Hide

    I love you Tim

  5. Stefanos Avatar
    Stefanos
    Hide

    You omitted that you may just get there.
    When everything is right in a relationship, you just get to a point when marrying is like:
    « Should we just do the paperwork? Should we have a party? »
    It becomes inconsequential, a civil law matter…

    1. MG Avatar
      MG
      Hide

      No, he didn’t. If that happens to you, then you are by definition not a “brain” person as he defines it here. That doesn’t mean “not smart”, actually you could be a lot smarter than most “brain” people. It just means you are comfortable making the decision through one of the other approaches, like your gut, instead of continually obsessing over the rational argument for and against.

      As a hardcore brain person, I know I will never “just get there”, because any amount of familiarity, comfort, trust, and lack of fear I may feel in the current moment is inherently insufficient for making a permanent life-controlling decision affecting my entire future where those things can and will change. Combining all of that with a conscious inventory of deal-breakers and a lot of self-knowledge and discovery of one’s partner is the only way I can see to placate that part demanding of rationality.

      1. Stefanos Avatar
        Stefanos
        Hide

        I think my message didn’t get through.
        In my life I obsess about what can go wrong and how.
        However, my partner and I have started a business together, bought our home together, mountaineer together and still complement each other in the best way.
        Recently we had a child together.
        At this point, there is nothing I have not gone over or considered in annd and about our 8 years together. Hence we are in a de facto marriage so filing the paperwork has become a mater of tackling bureaucracy and tax optimisation. In addition to that, since we are both atheists, the party is completely disconnected from the legal aspect itself.

  6. UnicornSparklesEnergy Avatar
    UnicornSparklesEnergy
    Hide

    Marriage is like a unicorn. PRECIOUS and magical.

    Stay with the grilled cheese sandwich. Avoid buffets.

    1. Bob Stein Avatar
      Hide

      Haha, whatever you mean (and the author meant) I support it. Some sentences have many interpretations and all of them are correct. Well done.

      1. UnicornSparklesEnergy Avatar
        UnicornSparklesEnergy
        Hide

        Thanks Bob. I grew up being in love with faithfulness. I admire people who keep their marriages and improve them and stay happy.

        I read that Queen Elizabeth fell in love with Prince Phillip and that he was the only man that she had ever fallen in love with. They first met when she was just 13 years old.

        Have a good weekend Bob!

    2. Soulbroken69 Avatar
      Soulbroken69
      Hide

      Good advice

  7. Ron Moore Avatar
    Ron Moore
    Hide

    Interesting how children weren’t mentioned once in that article. In my 34 years of marriage I found these give both partners common focus and we both feel grateful to the other for their contribution.

    1. sysfu Avatar
      sysfu
      Hide

      Exactly this. Marriage is an institution for the successful raising of children. The fact that this isn’t mentioned at all in this article is a case study of how far off course we are as a society. That rot is destroying marriages, damaging children and thus contributing massively to the decline of society and a healthy civilization.

      If you want to know how to choose a partner for marriage, think about who is going to make the best mother or father for the children produced from that union.

      If you don’t plan on having any children I’m not sure what the reason for getting married is tbh, other than to announce to the community that you are in a monogamous relationship.

      https://thembeforeus.com/

      1. Steve Avatar
        Steve
        Hide

        Another reason to get married I guess (I’m not an expert) is to show how much you love each other. And as Tim notes there societal pressure to get married.

        And I think you can not be married and still raise children well.

        These are just my thoughts though.

  8. Deva Avatar
    Deva
    Hide

    Anthropologist Helen Fisher, “The brain in love” : « Romantic love is the most powerful sensation on Earth. When you are in love, you make Dopamine, a natural stimulant, and spray it to many brain regions. The part of the brain that is activated when you’re in love is part of the brain’s reward system. It’s way below your cognitive thinking process. It’s below your emotions. It’s part of what we call the Reptilian core of the brain, associated with wanting, with motivation, with focus and with craving. In fact, the same brain region where we found activity becomes active also when you feel the rush of cocaïne. (…) Romantic love is a drive, a basic mating (reproduction) drive. »
    https://www.ted.com/talks/helen_fisher_the_brain_in_love

  9. Matt Avatar
    Matt
    Hide

    Why create a system totally different from the “picking a life partner” couple of posts you did in 2014? Are you reverting on the ideas you laid out then? Not that they contradict each other, but where should the focus be?

  10. Amber Avatar
    Amber
    Hide

    I just do not see what the big deal about marriage is in the first place. I was married to my high school boyfriend for 14 years and it was absolutely horrible and ended with terrible abuse. I have been with my new partner for almost ten years and we have two children and marriage is not on the radar. We are content with this. Sometimes, he hints at getting married but I just remind him that I think it would ruin our relationship. Signing a piece of paper would make me want to run away at this point. We split our bills and we do not share a bank account. This keeps things less complicated. If we split up, the only thing we would need to decide is a visitation schedule for the children. If he cheats on me, I have the power to just walk away with everything that is mine and he, with everything that is his. There’s no questions on splitting possessions up. If he ever hits me, I will not feel trapped or tied to him. I can just walk away. Marriage is a slave institution that traps a woman more than a man. I will never fall for that stupid mindfucked fairytale lie again. I do not understand why a woman begs and dreams about getting married. It is a prison hell. And, she gets the short end of the stick nine times out of ten. You have been warned, ladies. Keep your power…

    1. Bob Stein Avatar
      Hide

      So glad you’ve got a better relationship, and a better understanding of what works.

    2. happiest person on earth!! Avatar
      happiest person on earth!!
      Hide

      i think marriage is great, i’ve been married almost 20 years and no regrets, the trick is finding the perfect guy who you know wont do anything bad to you. Some people have a perfect someone out there some don’t, the best thing is to keep trying till you find the right guy. you’ll know its him when you meet him. If you wait for him it will be soo worth it. I am so happy with my life right now and wouldn’t swap with anyone!

    3. Ron Moore Avatar
      Ron Moore
      Hide

      ” I have been with my new partner for almost ten years and we have two children and marriage is not on the radar. We are content with this.” Yeah, we have a Court System now that will make sure he takes care of his kids. We didn’t have that when marriage started, just the man’s word he would, and the more people who witnessed him make that pledge the better.

  11. And That Is The Real Truth Avatar
    And That Is The Real Truth
    Hide

    Too bad that many of us single guys don’t have a real time machine to go back in time when most women in those days were the very complete opposite of today, and very easy to meet. Today they’re just so very horrible to meet.

    1. very horrible woman Avatar
      very horrible woman
      Hide

      *world’s tiniest violin*

      1. Guest Avatar
        Guest
        Hide

        Said the loser.

  12. George Avatar
    George
    Hide

    I think you should marry someone the moment your realize that despite the illogical nature of getting married, you still want to marry that person and can’t conceive of anything else.

  13. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous
    Hide

    Funny how most marriages lasted back in the past when most women at that time were very faithful, and so were most men too. Today unfortunately, most women cause divorce. Grow very old all alone with your bunch of cats ladies.

    1. Anonymous Avatar
      Anonymous
      Hide

      You certainly nailed it.

    2. Bob Stein Avatar
      Hide

      Better cats than halcyon fictions.

    3. McK l Avatar
      McK l
      Hide

      Somebody needs to study history better.
      Most men weren’t faithful – it was very common for men to have mistresses and sleep with prostitutes.
      Men’s infidelity is the reason condoms were invented (to prevent men from getting syphilis from prostitutes)
      AND “back in the day” it was considered the woman’s fault if their husbands went off with other women, however if the woman went with another man she was condemned – go read Anna Karenina, it was the book’s entire point.

      Not to mention, “back in the day” divorce was looked down upon making most people stay in abusive and deadly situations out of fear for their social reputations.

      1. Anonymous Avatar
        Anonymous
        Hide

        Well for your information when you compare the women back in the old days that were the very complete opposite of today, which most women were at that time. Today the great majority of women are just very horrible with no manners and personality at all when it comes to us men looking to meet a good woman today. Oops did i say a good woman today? Where in the world are they? Especially the ones that like to Curse at us men for no reason at all when we will just try to start a conversation with the one that we would really like to meet. Just saying good morning or hello to a woman that many of us single men would like to meet has become very dangerous nowadays unfortunately, and it is a shame that most of these women are just very severely mentally disturbed to begin with anyway.

        1. McK l Avatar
          McK l
          Hide

          and that’s 100%.because men have never given women respect as humans. So they’ve had to stand up and demand it.

          You aren’t a “nice guy” you’re a guy who wishes he could have a female slave and whines when no woman wants the position.
          They sell dolls at adult shops. Thats ALL you deserve until you work on yourself first.

          1. Anonymous Avatar
            Anonymous
            Hide

            I don’t want a female slave you idiot. I just want to meet a good normal woman for a change, instead of all the very nasty low life loser ones that i have been meeting unfortunately. Get a real life, you loser.

            1. Vivian Avatar
              Vivian
              Hide

              lol you keep ranting about women these days being “horrible”, then you said all the women you met were “nasty low life losers”, you seriously should take a look at yourself first.

            2. Guest Avatar
              Guest
              Hide

              Said Vivian the psycho herself.

            3. Ur A. Scary Man Avatar
              Ur A. Scary Man
              Hide

              Hurry n say i do b4 he gets back!

        2. Madame Mildew Avatar
          Madame Mildew
          Hide

          “Just saying good morning or hello to a woman…has become very dangerous nowadays”

          FFS, how is it “very dangerous” for a man to walk up to a woman to say hello? Because she might curse at you? Seriously dude, women have to fear that every man that walks up to her is going to be a violent sociopath or rapist, but you think a few swear words lobbed your way is ‘very dangerous’? You poor wittle menz!

          Here’s a little secret: There *is*a reason those women cuss you out – They don’t fucking want to talk to you! And that’s the only reason they need!

          And soooooo sorry (not sorry) that many of you single men would like to meet her, you are not entitled to ONE SINGLE SECOND of a woman’s time and women are not obligated to give you ONE SINGLE SECOND of their attention.

          Her desire to NOT talk to you wins out over your desire TO talk to her, so sorry Charlie, you have to leave her alone- and double down on that if she is simply existing in public and trying to go about their day- when you bother them on public transportation, on the street, at the doctors in stores or restaurants, etc you are *harassing* her!

          So kindly FOADIAF until you learn that women aren’t your pretty playthings to be summoned at a whim.

          PS: “ most of these women are just very severely mentally disturbed”
          =
          “Strong, independent, autonomous women won’t fuck me so imma call them crazy!” LOL

    4. Jan1031 Avatar
      Jan1031
      Hide

      As a cat lady who was married twice, I can tell you that I’m much happier with my cats than I ever was with either of my husbands. However, this isn’t because my former husbands were dicks. It’s because I’m just not very good at marriage. Maybe I’m somewhat high maintenance; I’m not sure what to call it. But I wound up feeling unvalued and underappreciated in both relationships within a couple of years. Looking back on it, though, I could have resolved a lot of this by being more honest and vocal about my concerns I didn’t give either guy much of a chance to “fix” the flaws in our relationship. I regret that, and my solution is: live alone with my cats. I may date again, but that’s about as far as it would go. At my age, I think that a significant change in my attitude towards being a spouse isn’t that likely. I look upon my decision as an effort to spare anyone from trying to steer me towards a permanent commitment in the future. It also spares me from entering into a third marriage that is almost certainly doomed to a bad end. I’m really good at some things; not so good at others. Marriage is one of those “not so good” things.

      1. Anonymous Avatar
        Anonymous
        Hide

        Most women today are just so very horrible to get married too unfortunately. They’re really not nice at all these days since they have no manners and personality at all either, especially when many of us guys will try to start a conversation with a woman that we think would be very nice too meet. Very unfriendly women nowadays that are real psycho’s as it is to begin with, and very extremely dangerous as well. If these women today were like many years ago, then many of us single guys would had met a real good one to begin with. Very risky for many of us to approach a woman because of their mental conditions that most of these women have now unfortunately. Today we have women that will Curse at many of us guys for no reason at all, and we never did anything wrong either for them to Curse at us like that. Just looking for love today has really become very impossible for many of us guys that really do want a very serious relationship, now that the women today have really changed for the worst of all since they’re the ones too blame instead of us. And i was married at one time before my ex wife cheated on me since she just had that desire to sleep around with different guys all the time before she was caught, and i was the very faithful one from the very beginning right until the very end.

  14. Posting From Confusion Avatar
    Posting From Confusion
    Hide

    Why, spambots? Why must you do this comment section like this?

  15. MGTOW Is A Lifesaver Avatar
    MGTOW Is A Lifesaver
    Hide

    Marriage isn’t worth it anymore these days for many of us single men. And with most of these very pathetic women nowadays that are so very very high maintenance, independent, which these dumb women really don’t need a man at all now, very selfish, greedy, spoiled, picky, narcissists, gold diggers, cheaters, think they’re all that, very money hungry as well, which so much more can be added to that list as well. This is why MGTOW is growing very rapidly, and getting much stronger with each passing day.

    1. jonah Avatar
      jonah
      Hide

      shut up

      1. He Is Right Avatar
        He Is Right
        Hide

        Said the loser.

    2. Joe Avatar
      Joe
      Hide

      Any man going MGTOW in western society is a moron.

      1. Joe, too. Avatar
        Joe, too.
        Hide

        I agree. The keyword for me has been “western”. I’m glad you made the distinction. And although it seems that other societies are different, they are no less successful (in nearly all metrics) but also quite happy.

        That said, relationships need commitment, and most societies have evolved the marriage (one sort or another) as a public institution (to help keep the commitment) but have still done so ONLY between two people (which tends toward diametricism (my word)). The U.S. today, as an example, is so diametrically “opposed” that, in my humble opinion, whether it is two political parties, or two people married (same sex marriages included), these are DOOMED. Maybe 300 years from now when they start drawing little hearts around three people, it’ll fail. But fail it must. Other institutions that used to keep people together, regardless of foolish acts on both (only both) parts, like religious groups, are losing their power – and will continue to lose influence over marriages. I’d rather have a disagreement with one wife, while my husband or my other wife gives me some objectivity, having seen – and experienced – it all with me. Sorry. To have it all played out for two other people? Almost as substantial and significant as having two committed parents (living together or not).

        You, whomever you are, want to have it your way? Go ahead. But think outside the box if you want to become a fully realized human being, however imperfect.

  16. fckvrthng Avatar
    fckvrthng
    Hide

    Read just after divorce. Where have you’re been:)

  17. ACC Avatar
    ACC
    Hide

    Excellent article and a timely discovery for me.

  18. Am Cynthia, am from UK Avatar
    Am Cynthia, am from UK
    Hide

    Am Cynthia by name, am from UK.

    1. Anna Smith Avatar
      Anna Smith
      Hide

      what do you what my friend?

  19. Mentally Disturbed Women  Avatar
    Mentally Disturbed Women
    Hide

    Well now that there are so many low life pieces of garbage women nowadays which makes it very difficult for many of us good single men trying to meet a woman that is normal, and they’re nowhere to be found. Just the very psycho ones out there now unfortunately. And these losers will even Curse at many of us men for no reason at all when we will try to start a normal conversation with them as well. Complete Psycho’s.

    1. fckvrthng Avatar
      fckvrthng
      Hide

      You’re psycho and your comment is bitchy

      1. I Agree With Him Avatar
        I Agree With Him
        Hide

        Well now that so many of these very severely mentally disturbed women have their very high standards these days which they’re really a bunch of losers altogether, just like you. Grow very old all alone with a bunch of cats, and you certainly deserve it.

        1. fckvrthng Avatar
          fckvrthng
          Hide

          I am middle aged white cisgender heterosexual male.
          Anyway, now I reread his comment and I don’t understand what made me so crazy ????
          There are women he described. But not all of women are like this.

          1. Anonymous Avatar
            Anonymous
            Hide

            Unfortunately most of these women are like this nowadays, especially now.

  20. Luci Avatar
    Luci
    Hide

    “A great way to be unhappy is to refuse to compromise on things you wish were true about your relationship that aren’t” Can you give an example of this? Or elaborate on this a bit more? I would think it’s the compromise, not the refusal to comprise that makes unhappy? I don’t get it.

    1. Bob Stein Avatar
      Hide

      This is a great question. A big part of my own evolution is to realize the few few issues I cannot compromise, and the many many I can. For example, to compromise on talking about everything would doom a relationship of mine to unhappiness. I need the words, that’s just me. To compromise on interior decoration, well that could easily increase mutual happiness. So I think you’re both right. To compromise on core values is deadly. To realize that everything else is fungible, and to go along joyfully, that is one of the great skills of intimacy building.

      If you think you have many core values, try comparing them honestly. I suggest a few stand stratospheric above the rest. (For me there are three.) Ensure their fulfillment in abundance. Focus on giving away the rest generously. All else, as Sigmund Wollmann says, is inconvenience.

      1. Luci Avatar
        Luci
        Hide

        Your explanation made it clear that Tim was talking about non-dealbreakers in this sentence. I didn’t see the distinction he was making.
        Thanks!

        1. Bob Stein Avatar
          Hide

          Yes, that’s a great short version of what I was trying to say. No compromise on the dealbreakers. Lotsa compromises on everything else.

  21. Brent Fisher Avatar
    Brent Fisher
    Hide

    Remember what D.A.R.E. said about recreational drugs…Don’t start and you won’t have to quit. I’m a 37 year old childfree supremacist that wants to be a virgin until the heat death of the multiverse.

    1. fckvrthng Avatar
      fckvrthng
      Hide

      Than this article is just irrelevant for you. Why are you here? To state your lifestyle?

  22. Dawid Deja Avatar
    Dawid Deja
    Hide

    Well it’s a very interesting article… unfortunately people do not make rational decisions based on logic or well structured information provided to them 🙂 no matter how much information we have… unfortunately it’s a proven scientific fact…
    We humans are acting (in majority of cases) on instinct and social constraints… and even if we think we go against the tied all we do is follow social behaviors that were already defined for us… that’s why it’s so easy to manipulate human beings 😉 If you want to know how it’s done I recommend to read a little bit about Dr Robert Cialdini… cheers!

    1. Connor Doherty Avatar
      Connor Doherty
      Hide

      Uh, no. Most people are quite irrational, and maybe you can’t identify with the types of people the author pointed out *before* the Brain types. But the brain types he describes do exist, and I identified perfectly with it. I’m an INTP, a highly cerebral creature, and “make rational decisions based on logic or well structured information provided to them”, as you describe it, is *exactly* the way I make most decisions. It’s weird, yes. I got teased for it a lot when I was younger. Now, mature adult friends are instead curious about it. It’s not common. But it’s still a lot of us humans – which, unlike your sweeping generalization, is an actual “proven scientific fact”.
      We’re also not very easy to manipulate. But then again, the idea that humans are “easy” to manipulate is very much dependent on your definition of “easy” – especially since the more meaningful the decision you want to manipulate is (not e.g. “what sandwich should I buy”), the harder it is.

  23. Shane m Avatar
    Shane m
    Hide

    Then very important, self serving cunts (law makers/politicians), devise lying speeches to make law easier and easier to biologically destroy relationships, like Australia borrowing USA “intervention-orders” and its accomplice “Disability [in] Justice”, so that one gender only, can lie out its ass to create “psychiatry” as a boundary, so then law makers then begin insanely inferring dank terminologies on the other genders mental behalf. Then the amount of bisexuals increase from mistrusting the other gender, and everyone starts talking racist/sexist shit about everyone else until law makers are ecstatically relieved that their careers will never run out of sacrifices to illegally fill prisons. And the rate of Americas hateful shit-coms increase, and all our lives become the same shit that falls out of peoples mouths who think Americas shit-com phrases are cool to practice on strangers.

  24. Feminism Ruined Us Avatar
    Feminism Ruined Us
    Hide

    It is very wonderful to be married with a family, if your that lucky and blessed to meet that special someone to share your life with. Being single and alone all the time can be very unhealthy, especially if your very unlucky when it comes to finding love. The real problem is that many of us single men just keep meeting the wrong women all the time, instead of meeting just one good woman to make us very happy since finding love today isn’t easy at all when it use to be very easy in the past. Feminism has really destroyed the dating scene now for many of us single good men really looking for a very serious relationship today unfortunately.

    1. Bob Stein Avatar
      Hide

      I suggest there may be more to that real problem than it appears. Nothing is as it seems. I don’t think finding love has EVER been easy, at any time in human history. There’s good reason to believe it’s always been a near-impossible struggle for almost everyone: if only because it’s one of life’s most consequential choices.

      1. Feminism Ruined Us Avatar
        Feminism Ruined Us
        Hide

        In the past love was very easy to find, and unfortunately most of these women today want the very rich guy instead. And going back in time which both men and women didn’t have that much money at all either, and now most women today are just so very greedy, selfish, spoiled, and very money hungry altogether since they want everything. Most women in the past never had what most of these women have today. Quite a change.

    2. Jenna Avatar
      Jenna
      Hide

      Feminism has absolutely ruined us. Women behave like men and run the relationship and these beta boys allow it. All while the alpha wife works and has other people raising her children. Men please you are the ones to stop it. Be the leader, the provider, the protector and the authoritarian voice. All through kindness, gentleness and of course honor and love. Many will come and go when they realize they can’t be the masculine. That’s ok. Show them the door first, once you realize. Your good hearted girl will come And she will respect your masculine gifts and be proud to give you her feminine.

      1. Feminism Ruined Us Avatar
        Feminism Ruined Us
        Hide

        In the good old days love was very easy to find , the way that it happened to our family members that were very blessed to be born back then. It is just too very bad that many of us single good men weren’t born in those days since even we would’ve been all settled down ourselves with our own families that many of us still don’t have today unfortunately.

      2. Brendathepanda Tan Avatar
        Brendathepanda Tan
        Hide

        Back then there was this thing called opression, and idk if you knew this but opression pretty much holds a very negative meaning to its name. What you have described here is a very old-fashioned and opressive way of thinking. Men can be all those things stated: leader, provider, protector, but they absolutely cannot try to hold a woman down of these same characteristics. Why were women more agreeable back then? Because of opression. The social stigma that women had to flounce in a nice dress, her hands ready with a beer, dinner in the other and a nice smile for her tired husband. In this age, we need to realize or at least the people who has yet to that women are very much human. They are worthy of self respect, dignity, and their own way of thinking as such as any other living creature on this planet. Women don’t have to be feminine, and men don’t have to be masuline. That’s all I have to say Jenna, have a nice day. 😉

      3. GFreeman Avatar
        GFreeman
        Hide

        Jenna, You will be glad to know that my comment to you was deleted by Waitbutwhy to protect you from truth. Freedom of speech means nothing here. No one is allowed to think thoughts unless officially approved. And if someone DOES think a thought that is not approved, you certainly cannot write it, say it or comment it here.

  25. Ryan Dewan Crawford Avatar
    Ryan Dewan Crawford
    Hide

    ok

  26. Chiara Avatar
    Chiara
    Hide

    I think the whole article shouldn’t apply only to marrage decision. Marriage is a long-term committment, yes, but even without The Decision to make, you actually ARE into a relationship and you should STAY into it only if you want to. Every day (or regularly at least) we should assess our relationships and ask ourselves whether we want or not committing every day in it. Marriage makes things complicated as we might change your mind, because circumstances change, we change. In that case, the institution itself makes you feel a bad person. Paradoxically, marriage should not even exist as imposition. You should stay in a long relationship because you WANT to. The same happen for people who live their life together without getting married. They renew their committment everyday, just as everyone should does, regardless this elusive Decision the society wants us to make…..

  27. Kathleen Elizabeth Avatar
    Kathleen Elizabeth
    Hide

    ugh ugh ugh I hate pseudoscience.”The typical human isn’t really equipped to make The Decision. We evolved
    to live short lives, during which life-altering 60-year commitments weren’t a thing.” The oft-quoted avg ancestor’s lifespan of 35 years reflect most people living to 70 but half the babies dying, not everyone keeling over at 35. Also most marriages were women being given to men by other men as legal property (daddy ‘giving away’ & woman losing her dad’s name and taking her husband’s)- not really a decision per se. Too much nonsense in the first couple paragraphs to continue.

    1. foxyshadis Avatar
      foxyshadis
      Hide

      I don’t think he’s talking about the Middle Ages or even Mesopotamia, but actual evolutionary timescales, when everyone was a part of small hunter/gatherer tribes. Not many made it to old age before agriculture.

      1. steve the pirate Avatar
        steve the pirate
        Hide

        bingo

    2. Angela Campbell Avatar
      Angela Campbell
      Hide

      Seems like some of the other people commenting on this post would prefer the time period to which you refer. (I will continue to delete my trollish posts for the sake of not being a renegade newcomer to the blog but jeez!)
      The rest of the article wasn’t bad. Having been in a similar situation for quite some time, there were a few “home truths”. I’m not sure how I would have felt about it if I was still feeling stuck.
      I mainly commented because I like your point about the average not being the norm. Cheers.

    3. Connor Doherty Avatar
      Connor Doherty
      Hide

      Just because someone may not have as correct of an interpretation of the facts as you do, does not make it “pseudoscience”. I agree that those few facts were used sloppily, but to not read the rest of the amazing article is just too dismissive, and calling it “nonsense” is too dramatic.

  28. Tiffany Chantel Avatar
    Tiffany Chantel
    Hide

    I wish someone could provide guidance as to how you go about listening to your gut when you tend to be very insecure and paranoid due to past trouble/trauma/trust issues in past relationships. That’s my problem. I have no idea whether feelings are my intuition/gut, or paranoia. It’s excruciatingly difficult.

    1. Bob Stein Avatar
      Hide

      This is a really great question.

      Uhh lessee what have I got to offer . . . Practice. Inner wisdom is a whisper in a hurricane. That lasts longer.

    2. Michael Deuber Avatar
      Michael Deuber
      Hide

      Getting to a healthy place, ideally before ending up back in a relationship, in the BEST plan. But life and love is complicated most times, so no judgement. I’ve been there plenty myself.
      Maybe your current partner is ok with you having some exploration space, therapy to work on those issues/questions. If he is strong he will be cool with it. In the end he should see that THAT plan is great because you emerge stronger, secure and ready to play with knowledge about yourself. It’s a win-win for him and you. Best wishes!!!

    3. Bukit Panjang Avatar
      Bukit Panjang
      Hide

      Date in a community setting. Let me explain myself. My hope is that you are loved by those around you – your friends, family, cousins, step-cousins etc. When we are at a point in our lives we are not able to trust our own intuition and judgement for various reasons (ie. past trauma), this is when we should rely on those who love us. Of course, the huge assumption is that you do have such people around you, and my hope is that you do!

      1. Bobmarley Avatar
        Bobmarley
        Hide

        Knowing that you can’t trust your gut is somewhat like trusting your gut. Knowing yourself and being honest with who you are and where you are goes hand in hand with trusting your gut. You have trouble trusting your gut so you need to build confidence in yourself. I’ve found that educating myself through reading, listening (to audio-books & podcasts), and talking to others definitely helps me understand or at least feel like I understand things better, as apposed to not trying to educate and learn (makes sense when you write it out like that).

        Also, regarding surrounding yourself with people that can help and support you I would just be cautious of those who are just telling they think you want to hear rather than what they think you need to hear. A lot of people don’t like to be real and give honest opinions to avoid conflict or hurting others feelings, family members can do this too.

    4. GFreeman Avatar
      GFreeman
      Hide

      Some people are self aware, some are not. Buddhism teaches self awareness as does MGTOW. Certainly you can use Google to learn.

  29. todd dresser Avatar
    todd dresser
    Hide

    “Making The Decision provides a reminder that “you” is actually a
    collection of voices, each weighing in from different parts of
    evolutionary history.”

    Swing and a miss. What about when there are no voices? What are you then?

    1. foxyshadis Avatar
      foxyshadis
      Hide

      If you have absolutely no opinion on it, then I guess you’re going with Method #1.

      1. todd dresser Avatar
        todd dresser
        Hide

        How is that relevant to my questions?

        1. Mo Nickels Avatar
          Mo Nickels
          Hide

          If you have no voices at all, absolute silence instead of the hubub Bob Stein said, then I agree that you end up with method 1, with complexities. If neither of you hear anything, it’ll probably continue until something happens that tips the scales (To me, some rando, your relationship sounds balanced between pros and cons, if you truly are neutral like you implied by saying no voices). It also may just indicate you aren’t ready for the decision yet, since you’re lacking an opinion. What if your partner has decided, though, and asks you to marry them? If it’s hard because you just don’t know, that again indicates it’s just not the time to be thinking about it.
          Also, I’d appreciate it if instead of replying nastily/sarcastically to me, like you did to bob stein and foxyshadis. you could perhaps just choose to ignore this reply, unless you have a genuine question/thought (and not frustration with your situation, or where ever else that’s coming from).

    2. Bob Stein Avatar
      Hide

      Um, someone who may wish to listen harder? A party of voices sounds like hubbub, but the voices are there.

      1. todd dresser Avatar
        todd dresser
        Hide

        Please read the statement that I posted in my comment, then read my questions. The writer defines “you” as a collection of voices, each weighing in from different parts of evolutionary history. Implying that “you” only consist of the voices in “your head”. My question was: What about when there are NO voices? I caught your sarcasm, but it did little to answer the actual question.

        1. Rog42 Avatar
          Hide

          Interested in you not “having any voices.” Can you help me understand that more please? In my experience in over 50 years, and travels in over 60 countries, I’ve not met anyone whom doesn’t have thoughts and feelings… …these could be separated to at least two voices. E.g. “I think that the Bugatti Chiron is the fastest production car in the world” and “I feel envious of the person who can own one.”

          These are the voices that Tim refers to. Except you can subdivide them further. Thoughts can be logical (2 x 3 = 4), inferred (she smiled at me, so she likes me), opinion (I’m not a great author). Feelings can be physical (cold, hot, tired), and emotional (hurt, happy, ecstatic, scared)

          Most of us (humans) take some time, and even feedback, to separate the thoughts and feelings – and even physical signs that help us identify these.

          But as stated, I’ve never met anyone without some kind of internal dialogue. So I’m curious as to whether you’re referring to:
          * You only have “one” stream of consciousness (i.e. only one voice) essentially your “I” and there’s no dialogue?
          * You don’t experience this as a “voice” (i.e. audible or even words) at all

          I’m intrigued at how you handle any decisions? (How) do you evaluate criteria, and decide which route to drive, or which meal to have, what to wear, when to do things?

          No judgement, or sarcasm here at all, genuinely curious…

          1. steve the pirate Avatar
            steve the pirate
            Hide

            late to the part but I’m very curious as well

    3. Connor Doherty Avatar
      Connor Doherty
      Hide

      You took “voices” too literally. Influences, rather. Just like you, I don’t actually “hear” any of these aspects talking to me. (Except the prefrontal.)

  30. Le Prof Avatar
    Le Prof
    Hide

    What is the basis of our trust in this writer-illustrator, on this subject of marriage (its engaging long-form nothwithstanding)? There is indeed the general popularity of the blogger in choosing topics which at least sometimes point a finger at our important concerns. But is this content on committed relationship real help, or more in the way of Job’s counselors? Does this piece and its author really engage the actual nuanced, there-are-two-sides situations of readers? Or is this simply content that connects because it addresses something for which almost all yearn—only to fall short of help or wisom in its affirming, right or wrong, our pre-existing notions or predetermined directions? (Have a look at the most affirming returned comments that follow.) Perhaps what we really need is wisdom on such matters, and even, sometimes, hard-to-hear true, informed counsel, and not just cleverness (even when the unruffling logic is easily followed and the illustrations cute). Maybe, for a general foundation in support of relationships that survive through thick and thin, a look at something like David Brooks’ Road to Character, or even disinterring Scott Peck’s Road Less Traveled—if we can’t bear the traditional wisdom literature of those who’ve gone before. Or perhaps we just need to find someone real with whom we can sit across a cuppa, someone with evident, long success in nurturing healthy relationships… that long-term committed aunt and uncle, or that older workmate and their partner. Ask them how to think about choices before and in commitment. (Even then, discernment is needed; the world out there abounds in self-fulfillment-as-self-help rot.) But our looking here for answers, on this particular subject? No, please no. Find a better way than this. To stop here is to add to a growing, sad commentary on the state of the American mind and heart; otherwise uncredentialed, inexperienced young bloggers with no real evidence of a basis in truth on a given subject in personal experience and success—on marital wisdom or anything else important—should not be our guides, should not be garnering hundreds of saves and reposts. There is true wisdom out there, to be found.
    — Signed, Someone in a 28-year commitment to a partner (etc.), but wary of marketed faux wisdom.

    1. sam Avatar
      sam
      Hide

      I think the relevance of this writer on this subject is his ability to give a well organized approach to thinking about the issue that sparks further thought in the person faced with the dilemma. The uniqueness of each person’s life and the relationships that ensue is such that no guru out there is very useful at all, unless they spark that thought in the mind of the reader. Most wisdom on the subject no longer applies to the modern day dating scheme. In a land of chaos, finding a structured approach is key. Tim does this very well.

    2. Rog42 Avatar
      Hide

      Faux-wisdom or not, I do think that this is helpful to many at a time where:
      * Few people seek formal (pastoral) or informal (parental) counsel anymore – perhaps due to the lack of trust in traditional institutions (which begs the question about considering marriage at all) that struggle with post-modern developments.
      * Fewer people read (the wisdom of the ages)
      * Many are so “jacked in” to (Internet codified society norms) that they struggle with self-awareness – what are “their” ideas, what are society’s ideas. It’s incredibly hard, and has been since the printing press and mass literacy, to have original thought.

      My take is that this is a short (sic) guide to identifying how to develop a semblence of self-awareness, and putting people on a path making what could be a tough decision. Even if it just highlights the responsibility for someone to consider things from self-awareness, that’s good.

      I’ve been married for 25 years, and got engaged to my wife on our first date, third meeting. Our success, and we do have a dynamic, happy relationship, is due to our daily commitment to love each other. The success of a tough decision is not the choice, but the commitment. Was I evolved to commit thus – or was I brought up in an environment that taught me about consequences of behaviour (committed action) rather than “free will” choices? Or both? Who cares. 🙂

      If the article is helpful, Tim has no greater or lesser credibility than M Scott Peck. If it isn’t, it’s freely put into the world, and you can choose to ignore it.

      I wonder, who has the better credibility on child rearing? A parent, or a paediatrician? Probably a parent paediatrician 🙂 Tim has one, methodically dissected, perspective – take it as such and get other perspectives.

  31. jbird669 Avatar
    jbird669
    Hide

    “Never sleep with anyone ever again dragon” – that’s not the truth. It can happen, and I’m not talking about cheating.

    1. Connor Doherty Avatar
      Connor Doherty
      Hide

      It’s not a lie either – he’s not saying you can’t, he’s just saying that you probably feel that society told you that. And I agree with him – it did. But I’m polyamorous, so I didn’t need to worry about this dragon – but it’s still an accurate description of mainstream pressures.

  32. Techy48495 Avatar
    Hide

    Unless you are having children, never ever get married.
    The only reason to get married is that, after kids, you will kinda hate each other.. and..
    ok I take it back.. never get married period.

    1. Tiffany Chantel Avatar
      Tiffany Chantel
      Hide

      What’s the difference between a piece of paper and not? How does that make a difference with couples who settle down long-term together? Like Kurt Russell & Goldie Hawn, for example? I’m just curious what you think.

      1. liveforyourself Avatar
        liveforyourself
        Hide

        Exactly. You could technically still throw a rich wedding if wanted, live out some social narrative, but NOT legally merge and tangle finances. If you look at marriage from a fresh eye, you can tell it was a social contract invented in a very different era from today.

      2. Connor Doherty Avatar
        Connor Doherty
        Hide

        I agree with you. And I have reasoned this way to my female partner – who also has no logical objection. However, she still feels that the piece of paper means everything to her. She recognizes that it’s society and her upbringing, as well as the status symbol among women, that forced her to think this way. Despite being aware of this, though, she is unable to change it. She really, really, really wants marriage.

        Hopefully that answers your question, and leads you to think on the next question, of what we can do about people feeling this way.

    2. Rog42 Avatar
      Hide

      Four daughters, all grown up, love my wife more than the day we met…
      …Love is a verb, not a noun

  33. foobunny Avatar
    foobunny
    Hide

    Married for 25 years, regretting the last 20. Wish I’d read this before I let her badger me into it.

    1. Rog42 Avatar
      Hide

      That’s sad 🙁 No judgement, but why didn’t you: a) Do something about your relationship when you started regretting it or b) Leave? Curious

  34. Michael DiMercurio Avatar

    Excellent, piercing analysis. I wish I had read this before (each) marriage. If I had flowcharted and spreadsheeted the decision, I would have absconded with my tux and vanished, and this revised decision would be twice vindicated by my present hindsight. WELL DONE and once again, Tim shows he is one of those advanced souls who don’t have to live the experience to analyze the experience – putting him in the .01% of all humanity.

    My contribution – let’s look at the idea of not making a decision and keeping the relationship so long as it remains functional. After all, why do I need the state involved in my relationship? Why do I need to pay $20,000 to a guy in a three piece suit and wait 3 or 4 years to litigate a divorce (in which I’m giving her the house, the lexus, the pool, the thoroughbred dogs, alimony and child support) in order to end a relationship? Can’t I just just keep her as a girlfriend, and then if it fails to work, split the dishes?

    Answer: yes, you can. Life has demonstrated in my 14 years of post divorce life that I’ve had 5 (count ’em) relationships and they were great until they died. Then I grieved, went on with life, and found the next one.

    Don’t believe me? Don’t listen to me. Listen to my client Tonno Bruno-Mercury, author of the Hundred Girls Project and The Second Hundred. You can find them at hundredgirlsproject.weebly.com and secondhundred.weebly.com – and good luck.

  35. Folcwine Pywackett Avatar
    Folcwine Pywackett
    Hide

    Many here criticize because the author has never been married. But this article (if you read the whole piece) is not about marriage but that time prior to engagement and marriage when one in a relationship must make a decision to either break up or get married. He surely has plenty of experience in that complex of thought about how you pick a mate. I found the article to be an excellent and funny discussion.

  36. EFB Avatar
    Hide

    The fatal flaw in this article is that the author has NEVER BEEN MARRIED, and writing about marriage without ever having experiencing it is like being “a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that doesn’t exist”! LOL

    Article Quote: “I’m not an expert on this, nor am I married—but I’ve read a lot about
    it, and I’ve had a front row seat for a large handful of case studies,
    watching friends go through The Decision and talking to them about it
    while it was happening.”

    Marriage has so many complexities that you could never opine about it just by “reading books” or having a “front row seat to case studies”. Color charts and deal breakers? Give me a break. If you think that’s the way to figure out marriage, you are in for a VERY RUDE awakening. Good luck.

    1. Bob Stein Avatar
      Hide

      Here is an example of listening shutdown based on a speaker’s background. Sincere learners don’t resort to this shortcut. Inconveniently, good ideas can come from anywhere. Fresh thinking on marriage is everyone’s job.

    2. Connor Doherty Avatar
      Connor Doherty
      Hide

      Sigh, another “experience is the only teacher” fanatic. There are more ways to figure out how life works than to go and test it yourself. Some of us can even do it without moving a finger.
      Not everyone’s intuition has the same limits as yours.

  37. Alan etcetera Avatar
    Alan etcetera
    Hide

    Good writings. A complicated view. What about those 70 yr. marriages when times were simpler? (you’ve heard that one, but some things were.) Here goes: (1) Being alone is a bummer. Housework, yardwork, washing, cooking, hobbies, career, entertainment; drive a person crazy trying to do all. (2) Takes a family to do all this, and at the same time care for each other. (3) Establish a legacy. When the Headless Horseman disappeared, being unmarried and out of debt, no one thought of him again. Children are actually all you have to leave society, unless you’re a writer. (4) Meet someone who is fair, reasonable, and shares your ruminations; should like sex. (But remember it only occupies a small part of the day.)

    Also, you know the one about not talking politics or Religion, so important to not go outside your parameters in this, else you’ll bring a thorn into the mix.

    Take note, most arguments & breakups are disagreements about money.
    You may think these are short-sighted, but maybe worth some consideration.
    Alan

  38. Matt E Avatar
    Matt E
    Hide

    Only problem with this is that you’ve supposed that marriage is right in the first place.

  39. mbschom Avatar
    mbschom
    Hide

    This would be true in a paradigm where the relationship is all about you and what you get out of it. I would suggest you change your paradigm. Go to the paradigm where there is an overall purpose to your life and any relationship you have is meant to be part of that overall purpose. If in a relationship, that would mean that you are, in turn, part of the other person’s overall purpose. Sheds a new light and dimension on the relationship and ‘The Decision.’ Where that overall purpose comes from is the next question. For me, it is a benevolent God.

  40. McK l Avatar
    McK l
    Hide

    Hm… this has never really been a problem with me.
    I’ve never experienced a bad breakup and now been married for nearly 10 years.
    We married at ages 19 & 22.

    Our keys to success:

    #1 Talking. About everything. Calmly.

    #2 Working to understand ourselves and how we’re reacting to a situation first instead shifting the blame onto the other person.

    #3 DON’T have a wedding. Weddings are a useless industry built around
    old and outdated views. Who wants to start a marriage by blowing almost
    your entire savings on one bullshit day in a dress you’ll never wear
    again just to impress a group of other people? Yeah… not smart, imo. Unless you got $$$ to kill.
    (I also feel that a lot of women rush into weddings just for the dress. Dumbest. Thought process. Ever.)

    #4 Polyamory and/or swinging – humans aren’t monogomous creatures, sorry. This is the biggest relationship killing lie fed to people and typically hard-pressed onto women (“men can’t help it”) by society..

    BTW – I’m the wife. I catch a lot of flack for how I view things, but… in my opinion, everybody else are the idiots setting themselves up for failure.
    Our marriage hasn’t been rainbows and cupcakes everyday, there’s been a lot of crazy lows.
    But I am 100,000,000% glad I’m in it.

    1. Bob Stein Avatar
      Hide

      Love to read YOUR articles on relationships.

      1. McK l Avatar
        McK l
        Hide

        Not sure if the sarcasm I’m sensing was meant to be there, but I think there’s people out there who might find enlightenment from my relationships and viewpoints. Just as I might find enlightenment in others’ relationships and viewpoints.

        1. Bob Stein Avatar
          Hide

          Gosh no, zero sarcasm intended. You had my respect at Talking About Everything. I imagine you have many stories and insights on how to work things out. More connection with more different people, learning is bound to happen. I would seriously love to read about your relationships and viewpoints. Please take this as heaps of genuine encouragement.

    2. Connor Doherty Avatar
      Connor Doherty
      Hide

      I agree with all of this, but the article still fit me perfectly.

      And thanks for saying that about polyamory (which has answered a lot of my ideological struggles).
      Though I’m not sure what you’re saying about the “men can’t help it” bit.

    3. Lara Avatar
      Lara
      Hide

      Wait what? HAHA. Your key to a succesful relationship is to indulge in polyamory and swinging? Because humans aren’t monogomous creatures? What the fuck, seriously.. Or did you phrase that wrong. Are you still married btw? The more time passes the the more chance of breaking up/divorce 🙂

      1. McK l Avatar
        McK l
        Hide

        Yep, still married.

        And the chances of a relationship ending increases for ALL relationships the longer they go. Being “monogamous” doesn’t change that – obviously, since “monogamous” people are the reason divorce was legalized.

  41. Slightly older and wiser Avatar
    Slightly older and wiser
    Hide

    Three simple but critical pieces of advice to help with the decision-making process:
    1. Putting their pros/cons on a sheet of paper under the headings “Complements my life” and “Complicates my life”. Which column has more entries?
    2. When you’re 85 years old, will this person wipe your ass when you crap yourself? Conversely, would you wipe theirs?
    3.Sexually, is this person all you’ve wanted and needed? If questions fester like, “I wonder if they’d try . . . ” and they haven’t yet, they probably won’t. If just looking at this person across a room over time still gets you just as frothy as in the beginning, they probably always will.

    Decide wisely, and remember, the regret monsters wait on either side of the equation.

  42. Jan Sean Avatar
    Jan Sean
    Hide

    This is really good advice to deal with a broken institution. As a person who doesn’t strictly believe in marriage or monogamy, I have been married for over twenty years and monogamous a lot longer than that. The real answer here is along the lines of 5 and 10 year renewable marriage contracts. If our society really embraced something like that, we would save incredible amounts of anxiety, indecision and divorce pain, not to mention acrimony and money.

    1. Connor Doherty Avatar
      Connor Doherty
      Hide

      Huh. Cool idea!

  43. Hologrammar Avatar
    Hologrammar
    Hide

    Good article.

  44. obiwanginobli Avatar
    obiwanginobli
    Hide

    Marriage protects children and culture. I say this without judgement for or against it as an institution, but the author fails spectacularly at understanding this, focusing instead on “me, me, me!”

    1. Hologrammar Avatar
      Hologrammar
      Hide

      If a culture needs to be protected, it’s not a particularly great culture, is it?

    2. Toby_W Avatar
      Toby_W
      Hide

      If you’re thinking about marriage in terms of children and culture, don’t

    3. Connor Doherty Avatar
      Connor Doherty
      Hide

      You’re making a logical error. Flawed or not of an assumption, the article already assumes you *will* marry *someone* eventually. Thus, the eventual children and what not, will be “protected” either way. The only thing that matters is if you’ve found someone who will keep you happy enough to make *now* the time to start it. And that should absolutely 100% be a “me me me” decision – it’s not selfishness, it’s being responsible for yourself.

      Again, the article isn’t about “should you get married EVER?”, it’s about “should you get married to THIS person? (or some other one?)”. Thus your objection doesn’t really apply.

  45. amrik Avatar
    amrik
    Hide

    The irony of this article is all about me me me, it reflects todays selfishness and why for most people marriage is now a paper contract, rather than what is used to be about … duty, responsiblity and selfless, unconditional love.

    1. KBL Avatar
      KBL
      Hide

      Yea, the beauty is that we don’t have to live those miserable “duty” lives anymore. People stayed together to survive. Men & women can live on their own, so marriage is just a paper now.

      1. amrik Avatar
        amrik
        Hide

        You live in a very small bubble, maybe in a rich western country which doesn’t really model the real world. Men and women need each other in most countries and even in the west you simply can’t get a decent house without a dual income now

        1. Bob Stein Avatar
          Hide

          You’re dismissing an argument based on assumed speaker’s demographics. Three mistakes in one. Argue the point, not the person.

  46. billcollings Avatar
    billcollings
    Hide

    I’ve been with my wife for over 34 years married over 32 year and over the past 3 decades seen many friends, classmates, budget travelers and retirees who cross paths with in our two small businesses and others been divorced 1, 2 or more times leaving behind children who suffer being part of such split families. I learned long ago to separate married life into the following roles, best friends, lovers, financial partners, and parents. On a 1 to 10 scale it’s impossible for all 4 to rank high but if 3 out of 4 are ranking 7, 8, 9ish and one is a 4 or 5 then with some effort these ratings in each role can be juggled with some effort and communication. When older married couples are asked what’s the key to their long married life, they answered “we never considered divorce as an option” . We both believe this 90% of the time. Your 25ish to 35ish generation is obviously a completely different story because of the time period you experienced while growing up and has been forecast that 1 out of 3 in your age group will be single at age 40. Keep up the good choice of topics and all the best luck to you and your family

    1. Jan Sean Avatar
      Jan Sean
      Hide

      Love this! Some of the best advice I have ever seen in print.

  47. Paolo Lammens Avatar
    Paolo Lammens
    Hide

    “Some people are bigger than society.”
    I think that’s where it’s at. If we can transcend prejudices and expectations from society, we wouldn’t have to deal with a dilemma altogether.

    1. Introvert Indian Avatar
      Introvert Indian
      Hide

      makes a lot of sense